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DrBen
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July 7th, 2003, 5:26 pm

If you are talking about numbers for mathematical and English literate developers you are lookingat $3K per man month. If you do not need high spec developers then $2K per man month seems tobe the market price. This is for signed contracts where the man months required to finish the contractare negociated in advance.If you go off-shore yourself and hire then you are looking at $600-1000/month salary, plus $30/m^2for office space, plus whatever the local tax system wants. Going offshore in person and hiring is theideal solution, but also alot of hassle. It also helps to have a bit of experience with dealing with thelocals; i.e. tax people, lawyers, officials. Offshore locations each have there own feel for doingbusiness; life is easier if have a feel for how things work and can go along with the flow. If you tryto "reform" a place then business can get rather complicated.
 
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hedgeQuant
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July 8th, 2003, 4:51 pm

I have been following the thread and would like to make a couple of more points in addition to the valuable info. given so far.I have did brief stints (internships) with a couple of firms in India that depend on getting worked outsourced from abroad. I have also some experience working in US and Europe (Sweden, to be more specific). From my experience, the good workers in India, especially fresh graduates, tend to place a premium on the company name. Thus Intel, TI and Motorola can easily get good talent at much cheaper prices when compared to a less known company. These companies also offer the opportunity to go abroad (read US) and earn at par with a local employee. Though the number of people who actually do get to go abroad is small, the promise itself attracts top talent.If you are looking for grads from top schools with EE/CS background, they are hard to come by. Many of them go abroad to pursue a PhD and the ones that stay behind often end up doing MBA and switch over to management.If you are a company based in US and looking to start a subsidary in India, it might be wothwhile to look at the numerous Indo-US tax treaties in place. You might get a good tax break. (Sorry I dont know more details about this).So far outsourcing has mainly concentrated on lower level software work. However there are some good opportunities for outsourcingsome of the R&D work. The route is a little different though. Usually you have to form collaborations with faculties in a good school.Here brand name premuims do not come into play and the costs are also lower. I dont know whether the software forum is the right place to discuss this. However if you want more details please post a follow-up or send me a pvt msg.hedge Q.
 
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DominicConnor
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July 9th, 2003, 12:19 pm

Personally I think this is exactly the sort of thread we need around here. This will be an important issue in the future.
 
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DrBen
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July 25th, 2003, 7:29 am

Does anyone have any insider knowledge on the following news article:Goldman Sachs may shift jobs to IndiaI assume they are thinking of moving more than "Spec driven" IT contract work off shore. I imaginethese institutions are thinking along the similar lines to the ones I outlined below.As a general point, the market seems to be trading out the IT arb quicker than I expected. Accordingto last weeks Economist in 15 years top Indian IT talent is expected to earn similar levels to US/Europeanbased talent. I even heard that some IT based companies are now sending work to China.
 
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N
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July 25th, 2003, 1:21 pm

DrBen,As I see it, there are two options. Either move up the technology food chain or get on a food line. Every job that isn't nailed downwill be going to India or China.For example, last week I was in NYC and for lunch had a couple of those great NY hot-dogs. Unfortunately, the damn hot-dog vendorgave me what appeared to be the wrong change. I confronted this hot-dog jerk, and he snapped right back, "Listen buddy, I have a PhD inmathematics and was a Wall Street quant for 10 years. When I say the change is $1.55 it's $1.55!"
Last edited by N on July 24th, 2003, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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DominicConnor
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July 26th, 2003, 2:45 pm

Or India & China will be coming to us...Many people want to stop immigration to rich countries. We either have these people in our tent pissing out, or outside pissing in.However, Le Chatelier's principle applies quite stongly. As we buy work from them, we inflate wage costs, a process we see already. Possibly the dumbest bit of socialism was its fixation on finite sum games. Rich Chinese and Indians will consume more, increasing demand for the expensive stuff we produce.Hong Kong has been part of the civilised world as long as many western nations yet it is not some all conquering force.Aside from the wage bubble, 3rd world states have massive infrastructure problems. Simply giving India and China decent electric and phone systems is an awesome project.In the short term, they can do drudge work in the small islands of civilisation. I can do physics using this laptop and the telescope upstairs, but to compete with a proper lab I need massively more.Even if you gave me a gigabuck, I couldn't sensibly run a leading edge physics lab, nor can you expect Indians or Chinese to run a state that competes with us on the hard stuff.They need exotic technologies like markets, democracy and rights for individuals. We have become so used to these that we see them as moral issues, but they make us much more efficient as well.It's not that they are too dumb to run their countries proplerly, but the greatest infrastructure project is fixing their cultures. This is not simply killing the evil corrupt scum who run their countries, but tricky stuff like judicial review, separation of church and state, and educating women. These will impose vast stresses upon their nations. The greatest threat to China is Hong Kong.
 
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July 27th, 2003, 7:17 am

Can't pinpoint it anymore, but in the last month or so I believe AT Kearney had report out on the matter. If I recall correctly, the news release based on that report mentioned that Wall St. is expected to lose around 500,000 jobs over the next 2-3 years to Russia, India & China. Hmmm....does Wall St. have that many jobs? Every job that isn't nailed down will be going to India or China.What struck me was not that IT jobs were being outsourced, but they were also talking of "analyst" jobs. I guess IIM (India) graduates are soon going to rake it in....
 
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July 27th, 2003, 9:57 am

Even if you gave me a gigabuck, I couldn't sensibly run a leading edge physics lab, nor can you expect Indians or Chinese to run a state that competes with us on the hard stuff.Well yes, but I still see a bunch of ex-Bell Lab researchers sharpening their skills in cooking hot-dogs.
 
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July 27th, 2003, 6:11 pm

Well yes, but I still see a bunch of ex-Bell Lab researchers sharpening their skills in cooking hot-dogs. Well smart does not equal useful.The current market favours those with skills in keeping things going rather than moving forward.Hard to see a Bell Labs guy being a good cost cutter.
 
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Russell
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July 29th, 2003, 8:41 am

QuoteEvery job that isn't nailed down will be going to India or ChinaI agree, although in that case I'm not averse to living in India or China for a while myself.In previous centuries many people from rich countries migrated to poorer ones in search of opportunity (and often, regrettably, exploitation). Recently the trend seems to have left developing nations net exporters of talent and most developed nations talent has become far more risk averse. Hopefully this will change and more people will leave high cost counties like Britain etc... and take their capital and skills and do something useful with them in environments where rates of return (and of course risk) are higher. Especially in an era where you can get about -1% real on US cash, or buy earnings at some ridiculous multiple in the US stock market, does anyone really think they're going to get rich doing that?
 
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DrBen
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July 30th, 2003, 6:29 am

Though I believe in free markets, I also believe that markets should serve humkind rather than we are here to servethe markets. That is, society has developed a capitalist system which underlying purpose is to get people to do somethingconstructive which there lives. What we determine as constructive is what the markets determine as value adding, hencewe need to regulate markets in the sense of keeping the value in accordance with our "core values", like unemploymentis bad. I suppose the maximisation of "human capital" rather than ecconomic capital is the ultimate aim. So N,hearing that, good people are selling hot-dog on NY seems to be an miss allocation of this human capital.QuoteDFDC said "but the greatest infrastructure project is fixing their cultures.Ideas like working seem to be an abstract principle in some cultures, particularly if they have a few thousand dollarsin the bank. In London, people are there at 7:30am even when they have millions in the bank. But this fixing of thecultures from a Western prospective is taken place through the process of globalisation (aka Americanisation). Byexporting Western culture and institutions you are exporting the ideology on which they are built. When Indians,Chinese adoped this ideology and decide to become ecconomic agents in global markets we should not besurprised (I see former USSR, Eastern European states as a different case but still similar forces are at work). The worldsbecoming a homogeneous MacWorld which seems a freightening thought but it appears to be happening. Everyone wants abetter life, in places like Indian 50 years ago that meant religous "enlightenment", now that means buying the latest DVDplayer and listening to Madonna.QuoteRussell, "Recently the trend seems to have left developing nations net exporters of talent and most developed nations talent has become far more risk averse."This is certainly the case. What this means in practise that off-shore locations are pretty boring places for people with "talent".This has always happened at a nation level, in the UK people go to London, in the US I guess it would be NY. But now it ishappened globally. Sure, in the US you get 1% on cash but at least you can converse with an equal.
 
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DominicConnor
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July 30th, 2003, 7:36 am

So N,hearing that, good people are selling hot-dog on NY seems to be an miss allocation of this human capital.Agreed, however there is the notion of personal utility, and the hot dog selling issue does sound to me like personal preferences as well. Someone like that could for instance become a teacher on a higher pay scale, but clearly chooses not to.But this fixing of thecultures from a Western prospective is taken place through the process of globalisation (aka Americanisation). Byexporting Western culture and institutions you are exporting the ideology on which they are built.Yep. Though of course capitalism is a middle eastern idea and democracy is greek. I don't think you can easily separate ideology though. Many political forces are based in technology and vice versa. TV and the longbow have had import effects on the evolution of democracy. now that means buying the latest DVD player and listening to Madonna.Indeed it does, but I reject the 50 year horizon. British and Indian cultures were actually merging, so that many Indian cultural items such and democracy as their appalling bureaucracy and were British in origin, they even drove out the Brits using people like Gandhi who were trained up by them.However, your point about DVDs is I think an important one. Indians, like any country that enjoys a decent degree of freedom have a large number of English speakers. They are in communication with the world, and thus enjoy the most important political freedom; the knowledge that things don't have to be the same as they are here. No one claims Madonna is high art, however she is a front line drone in our cultural assimilation. She is famously and loudly her own woman, using talent and effort to improve her life. This is a disruptive notion to many cultures, where women are little more than posessions. As a westerner I see that as important, the Chinese people I work with are simply mystified why I care about human rights.Sure, in the US you get 1% on cash but at least you can converse with an equal. That is an important factor, there have been studies of how regions can form virtuous circles that lead them to become centres of excellence. It certainly includes peer to peer exchange of expertise. You can give a smart Nigerian PhD a pile of books, put him through the CQF, but he won't be much use to anyone until he has picked up "tricks of the trade". He will both bebefit from this pool of knowledge and add to it. However, he won't do this by staying in Nigeria, there just ain't peers for him to work with.
 
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July 30th, 2003, 9:59 am

DCFCI have read many of your posts on this topic and am frankly amused by your ignorance.firstly, indian culture has nothing to do with british culture, except the 200 years of plundering you guys did that remind every indian of the need to be a strong military power ...of course you have your curry, but frankly i don't think it bears much resemblance to authentic indian foodsecondly, you say you trained gandhi...he was a lawyer (a pretty average one). you make it sound like you trained him to be a freedom fighter.the only reason gandhi's approach was used was that enough indians did not have the balls initially to throw the english out by force, and that could change pretty soon when 200000 people try to rule 200 million...in fact, i think gandhi delayed the inevitablethirdly, you guys pride yourselves over your democracy. When a million people protest against the war and Blair doesn't even reconsider his decision, it doesn't sound like democracy to me. Either your government does not care what public opinion is or they don't mind going to war against the wishes of the people if it earns them brownie points with the US. You tell me which one is worse...As for human rights, everyone alks of Tianamen square, but why do you forget your own race riots and Irish problemYour views on the infrastructure in China and India are also inaccurate. I do not see why outsourcing in such a big deal. In a truly free market (which the right wing guys advocate), there should be labour mobility as well. However, now everyone is worried about losing votes because of jobs moving away. Why do they cry foul when other countries try to protect their markets...I think people should accept that there is a value proposition that outsourcing offers and the free market will decide what the extent and nature of outsourcing arebtw. get a real book on the history of pre-independance india if you are interested...not something that changes the facts to help the english have a clear conscience about the past
 
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July 30th, 2003, 11:08 am

I have read many of your posts on this topic and am frankly amused by your ignorance.glad to be of use to someone firstly, indian culture has nothing to do with british culture, Bizarre statement. Why then are there so many English speakers there, why did Gandhi say he saw the world through the eyes of an Englishman, how did you get all those Christians, the people who created your democracy were trained up by Brits, and the Indian Army is a British artifact, and the train system didn't just appear.except the 200 years of plundering you guys did Agreed that the British did many bad things, I was saying there was an effect, never claimed it was a wholly good one.You're mistaken about the "you guys" bit as well.that remind every indian of the need to be a strong military power"you guys" doesn't really apply to me, at this point my ancestors were fighting the Brits, only the Germans have killed more Brits than us. I agree 100% with you that you need to be able to defend yourself, especially since like India's ancestors we lost.However, India and Ireland haven't really sussed out what makes you strong. A culture is a fine servant, but a poor master. Rather than understand genetics my ancestors investigated the Bible, the ensuing Irish potato famine killed off about 25% of the population. Rather than study democracy, we picked up frankly rather silly ways of running ourselves, which were actually just like the Indian ones of the time. We didn't even really get into technology until long after the Brits had conquered us, plundered a bit and wandered away again. Like contemporary Indians, the people I evolved from still delude themselves with religious manias, and don't educate their women as well as men. To be fair Ireland isn't as corrupt as India but that is not for want of trying. ...of course you have your curry, but frankly i don't think it bears much resemblance to authentic indian foodThat is an aspect of the merging of Anglo Indian culture I was talking about. To be sure it is not "authentic", but so what ?It is what Brits enjoy, I don't know why, but people choose to eat it. Balticurry I understand to be a wholly British invention.secondly, you say you trained gandhi...he was a lawyer (a pretty average one). you make it sound like you trained him to be a freedom fighter.Nelson Mandela was a lawyer trained under the British tradition as well. Lawyers actually can make damn fine freedom fighter, or of course the opposite, point being that the skills are useful.the only reason gandhi's approach was used was that enough indians did not have the balls initially to throw the english out by force, Again, read your history, or indeed geography. India also had Portuguese enclaves , though if you were educated in India I can understand your ignorance of that item, since India's conduct was less than perfect. Wasn't just the English, lots of other bits of the Empire were involved.In any case violence would not have worked, or at best would have turned into a vast bloodbath.The Indian army was mostly loyal to the British, and if you look at how tenaciously the Brits fought in other places your simple minded arithmetic would not have worked. Recall of course that Indians are not a single race. Britain was skillful at using racial divisions to keep control in India and other areas. Whatever part of the world you live in, it is often the case that people hate the group just down the road more than they hate their oppressors. Recall also that moslems were admired by the British as good fighters, and given that they had good reason to fear Hindu rule, would probably have stayed with the Raj. Also many groups did rather well out of British rule, and the more strategic minded knew that Russia was always poking its nose in to this region.Of course the Briitish may have screwed up, but relying upon your enemy to blunder is a poor strategy, and a multifactional civil war in India would have continued to burn lives long after the British ran away. Think of Yugoslavia with 100 times the body count.in fact, i think gandhi delayed the inevitableHardly. Pre 1939 there was no realistic chance, and independance was 1948, bloody fast if you ask me. Maybe he lost you a week.thirdly, you guys pride yourselves over your democracy. When a million people protest against the war and Blair doesn't even reconsider his decision,I find it strange that in a quant forum you display such innumeracy. There's 60 million Brits, and all polling data showed that most Brits supported the war. That of course doesn't make the war right, but you're silly to call it undemocratic. Either your government does not care what public opinion is or they don't mind going to war against the wishes of the people if it earns them brownie points with the US. You tell me which one is worse...It does care a lot, fact is that British people will generally suport the USA. You can see this as bad, but you are missing the point.Your skew is so bad that you're missing simple, well known objective facts. The Brits supported the war, maybe that makes us bad people, but we did mostly support it. Democractic does not equal nice.As for human rights, everyone alks of Tianamen square, but why do you forget your own race riots and Irish problemHardly. Unlike the Chinese we're examining carefully bloody sunday at vast cost. But yeah, the Brits do bad things, but again you're being innumerate in your understanding of scale. We have race riots, but fewer than most countries and deaths are really rather rare.Certainly we compre well to India, and as for the Irish problem, look at my name, the little racism I ever see on that front is mostly me sneering at some poorly educated English people I sometimes work with.Your views on the infrastructure in China and India are also inaccurate. Eh ?India and China have appalling infrastructure, perhaps you are denying the water and phone problems in China or electricity supply issues in India ? do you make any assertion that you bother to check ? In a truly free market (which the right wing guys advocate), there should be labour mobility as well.As a "right wing guy", I am 100% behind labour mobility, as I said in my earlier post I want smart people to come to Britain, and if Brits wander off that is their decision. I note from history that allowing people in is a direct cause of Britain's success and survival.and the free market will decide what the extent and nature of outsourcingyou're contradicting yourself here. I would like you to be right, but you're not. The outcry over international outsourcing will stop the market deciding. You can't admit to a large political outcry and then assume free markets.btw. get a real book on the history of pre-independance india if you are interested...not something that changes the facts to help the english have a clear conscience about the past Oh dear. Have you ever been to England ? British TV repeatedly shows Brits the bad things they've done in India and elsewhere, indeed there is good money to be made in reporting such things. I have read about pre 1948 history, and it does not reflect well on the British. However where your education is lacking is that it looks pretty bad on the Indians as well. You say that the Brits were outnumbered. so how come they conquered it in the first place ? Can you think of a snigle pre-Raj Indian ruler who wouldn't qualify as a war criminal ? The only difference I can see is that the Brits were more efficient.Efficiency is not to be sneered at, though India and Ireland suffer because they place "culture" over it, think of this as evolution in action.
Last edited by DominicConnor on July 29th, 2003, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Marine
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July 30th, 2003, 11:34 am

Derivativestrader,I am assuming you are living and working in london! If you were born in england or if you are now a citizen of the uk then shut the f*ck up or go home since you miss it so much! Maybe then you can be hired for an off shore it shop.And for Tianamen Square, if india is such a great country why are they still constantly fighting about kasmir with pakistan. They should have solved the problem by now! Or i suppose you will still blame the english over this problem eventhough it has been years since the english left.Here is a very quick lesson in democracy. The majority rules any dispute. I would not call one million citizens a majority (its not even 10%) so Iraq was invaded!I have some experience with off shore it shops and it pays to have the developers close by. Some guy in india creating your trading system who has no derivatives experience and cannot ask anyone questions is going to create a shitty system. What good is a shitty system if you cannot use it? But it was cheap!Who do you trade for? Maybe I will have a chat with them about your ignorance!
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