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Cuchulainn
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 25th, 2005, 6:45 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: DCFCWhy would the Dutch be scared of Britain?Must confess I don't know the exact politics; but recall that Holland was neutral in WWI and if one looks at the early part of WWII, Holland might well have been induced to be an ally of Germany.I suspect another factor was the general policy of appeasement. No nation was prepared to annoy Germany.Dominic,This is a very weak answer.Unfortinately, you do not understand what you are talking about.This is the not the first time you have equated the Netherlands and Germany. It is inaccurate at best.It would really piss off a Dutch person to say that Holland might have become an ally of Nazis. No way. Ireland, on the other hand was a different story that you do have intimate knowledge of.
Last edited by Cuchulainn on June 25th, 2005, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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DominicConnor
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 26th, 2005, 7:04 am

This is the not the first time you have equated the Netherlands and Germany. It is inaccurate at best.I have not "equated" Holland and Germany, indeed I can't recall ever doing so.It would really piss off a Dutch person to say that Holland might have become an ally of Nazis. No way. No doubt.It would piss of a modern German to say he might become a Nazi. It would piss off a modern Frenchman to claim that many thousands of French people wouild fight for Nazis. Which is fair enough. We now know the full story.1939 was a very different world. The Nazis were widely admired, western europe had non-trivial parties who officially adopted Nazi ideas, and the ruling classes throughout the region liked the way Hitler ruled strongly, brought order and built big things.Of course a modern Netherlander finds the idea of working with the Nazis loathsome, German friends of mine tell of experiences on holiday in the 1970s 20-30 years laterwhere driving through dutch roads they kept having stones thrown at their cars. However, Holland took a while to realise what was going on, a common failing of course, but they were even slower than the catastrophically incompetent Brits.Few people in 1939 would have realised how crap the Germans were at making allies, and if you recall many Frenchmen fought pretty bloody hard against the British. The Germans certainly did not see the Dutch as a lesser race, and their treatment is rather different to (say) Poles. It's not that hard to see a more competent Germany drawing in Dutch people to it's cause.Also you and I know how WWII worked out. It was different then. Many people believed that WWII would be like WWI, but with civillians being dragged in as well by bombing. However, there was good reason to believe that it would last a lot longer. Holland would have been attacked by Britain in that scenario, it's industry and ports would have been so useful to Germany that there would have been no alternative. Britain was unique at that time as the only power who really got into building strategic bombers to attack civillians. Everyone else, particularly the Germans saw bombers as longer range artillery support for the army. Their big bombers were so crap that all by themselves they dispel the myth of Aryan superiority. Ireland, on the other hand was a different story that you do have intimate knowledge of.The only "intimate" knowledge I have of Ireland is that I'm related to many of them. Almost none of my formal education covered Ireland, and none of it was past the 1920s, Brits are remarkably polite about the behaviour of the Irish government on this matter. To be sure, these links mean I bothered to read a little more in that direction, but ultimately Eire was marginal.
 
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Cuchulainn
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 26th, 2005, 6:31 pm

Getting back my original question, I suppose the Dutch did not build fortresses to keep out Britain? And they were in no way waivering before WWII.Ok, I like facts instead of opinions because the latter tend to become the former when they are uttered 3 times.That's all.
 
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DominicConnor
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 27th, 2005, 7:01 am

I'm not sure what I've said you feel are wrong.No nation was very well prepared for German attacks, and in particular France & Britain thought the idea of a sweep from the north quite impossible.As for "waivering" there was a very strong pacifist/appeasement tendency as well. Together with my assertion that the Germans saw the Dutch as a one of the superior races, all these are pretty much mainstream views. Yes, Holland had some defences, indeed the ability of Holland to slow downa German attack was a reason for their style of attack.Holland & Britain weren't really allies, and Britain has fought Holland more often than it has fought Germany. so I'm not saying the Dutch were Nazis, eager to join the Reich, but that it tooka long time for people in general in most nations to realise that the Hitler wasn't just another violent dictator like Napoleon, but a serious force for evil. Many didn't realise just how bad his gang were until after WWII, dismissing the stories coming out of Germany as the sort of propaganda you get in all wars.
 
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migalley
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 27th, 2005, 9:16 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnA 9 hour working day is enough. After that it's just goofing around. I might be wrong of course.Out of curiosity, any brave Wilnotters like to tell me their work schedule? My schedule is 9 to 5 with an hour for lunch. So 35 hours per week in total. About 95% of the time is spent being bored out of my mind with a lack of work. So I have plenty of time for Wilmott.comAs in the the old commie countries, my employer pretends to pay me, and I pretend to work! Unfortunately there is no way my employer would ever pay more to get better productivity, even if I were to do so, so why bother.
 
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TraderJoe
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 27th, 2005, 10:30 am

Sounds like 95% of all of the jobs I've ever had. You don't work in a large telco do you? Capitalism in practice is often a little different than on paper and not alot different from communism in practice I might wager . Poor management and leadership abounds in any political and economic "system". People are people... I can almost guarantee the Chinese right now are working a damn sit harder than the average American even though they exist in a communist system .
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Cuchulainn
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 27th, 2005, 12:49 pm

> a long time for people in general in most nations to realise that ...In particular, Mr. Chamberlain.
 
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migalley
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 27th, 2005, 1:11 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Cuchulainn> a long time for people in general in most nations to realise that ...In particular, Mr. Chamberlain.Why in particular Mr Chamberlain?There were many politicians and people with power, both inside and outside the UK, who did not realise this, long after Chamberlain had declared war on Germany.
 
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Cuchulainn
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 27th, 2005, 2:15 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: migalleyQuoteOriginally posted by: Cuchulainn> a long time for people in general in most nations to realise that ...In particular, Mr. Chamberlain.Why in particular Mr Chamberlain?There were many politicians and people with power, both inside and outside the UK, who did not realise this, long after Chamberlain had declared war on Germany.he's the man who said 'peace in our time'?
 
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DominicConnor
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 27th, 2005, 3:19 pm

Chamberlain was probably the last person who had a chance to stop WWII.Problem was of course that history and his own personal failings had made it clear to anyone that he wanted peace at any price. He had a tricky hand to play. Britain & France lacked the power to defeat Germany, and at the time Russia was actually an ally of the Nazis, ganging up on Poland.America was heavily influenced by the Kennedy gang whose hatred of Britain made them de-facto allies of the Nazis, an easy task to achieve since America was largely isolationist anyway.There was no obvious prospect of the two-front form of war lost by Germany in WWI, and that would prove fatal to it in WWII.Recall that Britain never did liberate Poland, the Russians took it off the Germans 6 years later, chopped a bit off Germany and added a bit of east Poland to it's own land, effectively moving it to the East quite a bit.The Poles liberated themselves many years laterIt's interesting that it took so long for Chamberlain to fall out of power, partly of course because many people thought that there wasn't much he could have done better.Germany thought that Britain would do a deal, like it had before, and saw the French defences as silly, indeed it takes a lot of effort compensating for hindsight to work out quite why the French thought their defences a) could work, or b) why they had such a huge hole in them.
 
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SierpinskyJanitor
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 27th, 2005, 3:27 pm

Russia was never a Nazi ally. Stalin bought time on the Russian front, that’s all. Those who don’t understand this probably should read some more about the WWII history. The greatest contributors to German defeat were the Russian Armed Forces. It’s very interesting to hear the somewhat distorted spin-historians highlighting the French Resistance and the British Army has having played a decisive role during this conflict. They simply did not.
 
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TraderJoe
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 27th, 2005, 6:35 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: SierpinskyJanitorRussia was never a Nazi ally. Stalin bought time on the Russian front, that’s all. Those who don’t understand this probably should read some more about the WWII history. The greatest contributors to German defeat were the Russian Armed Forces. It’s very interesting to hear the somewhat distorted spin-historians highlighting the French Resistance and the British Army has having played a decisive role during this conflict. They simply did not.So D day was all a myth sierpinsky?
 
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mdubuque
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 27th, 2005, 6:42 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: DCFCChamberlain was probably the last person who had a chance to stop WWII.America was heavily influenced by the Kennedy gang whose hatred of Britain made them de-facto allies of the Nazis, an easy task to achieve since America was largely isolationist anyway.Dominic-Is this "hatred of Britain by the Kennedys" a widely accepted fact? I hadn't heard that before (which of course doesn't mean it is false).matthew
 
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DominicConnor
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Fjordman: Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

June 27th, 2005, 7:11 pm

Russia was never a Nazi ally.It signed treaties with the Nazis, and attacked Poland with Germany. Sounds like an ally to me.Stalin bought time on the Russian front, that’s all. didn't think anyone other than 1970s socialists still believed that.The facts do not fit the buying time argument, indeed no one has really come up with a convincing explanation of quite what exactly Stalin was up to.Russia was woefully unprepared for the German attack. If it was "buying time" it would have had less of it's air force destoryed on the ground. Stalin refused to listen to anyreports of the upcoming German attack. Depending on whose version you believe some people who insisted on reporting it got shot.Those who don’t understand this probably should read some more about the WWII history.Didn't you know about the German attack ?The greatest contributors to German defeat were the Russian Armed Forces.Certainly more of them died, certainly they killed more Germans. Could Russia have lasted without the effect of Britain in the West, or the Greeks totally fucking up the Eastern push ?Hard to say.It’s very interesting to hear the somewhat distorted spin-historians highlighting the French Resistance and the British Army has having played a decisive role during this conflict. They simply did not.True.Never said they were decisive. The British army was a complete shambles until after the Russians had turned the tide.The RAF on the other hand made a big difference. Partly by keeping Britain in the war, and so splitting German force, partly by blowing up Germans and their factories, and a huge amount of resource had to be diverted to defend Germany from air attack. Would Russia have still won if Britain had fallen ?Hard to say. Aurora was a very close thing, maybe, it's hard to call.
Last edited by DominicConnor on June 26th, 2005, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.