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Man
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 4th, 2007, 6:03 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: zetaI'll get myself into trouble (no doubt) but gravity isn't substance or matter, and there isn't an aether either (pun intended)However you define gravity, is nothing void of gravity?
 
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zeta
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 4th, 2007, 6:44 pm

it's a case of a falling tree making no sound if no one is there to hear it.
 
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Cuchulainn
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 4th, 2007, 7:01 pm

QuoteNOTHING IS CERTAIN BUT DEATH AND TAXES.
 
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Traden4Alpha
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 4th, 2007, 7:04 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: ManQuoteOriginally posted by: zetaI'll get myself into trouble (no doubt) but gravity isn't substance or matter, and there isn't an aether either (pun intended)However you define gravity, is nothing void of gravity?If so, then nothing could be used to shield objects from gravity. Thus, if I could put nothing between myself and the Earth, then I could float up into the sky (which brings us back to the "flying dream" thread).
 
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TraderJoe
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 4th, 2007, 9:10 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: zetaThere's a lot of nothing out there, the universe is mostly nothing. The actual volume of an atom that comprises the particles is a minute fraction of the whole; there are large regions within an atom where there is essentially zero probability for an electron to pay a visitAre you an Art Graduate? Can you even read? Casimir affect mean anything to you little miss sunshine?One word - gravitons.
 
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zeta
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 4th, 2007, 11:37 pm

ever heard of lithium?my education aside, a graviton, if it exists, is massless and furthermore if you dispute the fact that an electron doesn't visit all points of space in an atom then you didn't exit high school. maybe you should read this page at cernQuoteQ:In atoms between the shell of electrons the space is empty so is there really NOTHING between them, is it empty of everything, completely?Yes. There is really nothing there. Not much different from a vacuum. But you should not think of this space as a place where nothing ever goes: the electrons do move around a lot, even if in a statistical sense they are moving in the shells, there is a probability that they are elsewhere too at times. So if you could "stand" in that space, you would still occasionally see an electron "fly by" (whatever that would mean). You have to avoid thinking in images, unfortunately.why don't you try again. and please don't tell us you ever came within 1000 miles of cernED: typo
Last edited by zeta on April 4th, 2007, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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rmax
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 5th, 2007, 6:18 am

Disgaree - there is the zero-point energy of a vacuum due to HUP. Hence there will always be something - even for a time <h bar squared. If Gravitons don't exist (I know, I know we can have a long thread just on that statement both Phyiscal adn metaphysical), then there will still be the space time curvature within the "nothing" space Cern mentions.... zeta - I wanna here your speculations on GR.To take a contradictory stance, nothing exists outside by sensory perception......
 
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vixen
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 5th, 2007, 9:10 am

It looks like different people are using the same word to mean different things and therefore this discussion is just about language!Please define 'nothing' and 'exist'.
 
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zeta
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 5th, 2007, 12:26 pm

all right I admit I was getting a little too zen, but then I maintain that a field or fluctuation/quantization (a graviton) doesn't exist (there is 'nothing') if there is no material thing to detect it. Similarly space time curvature is a means to explain the interaction between a field/it's quantization and a massive particle; no massive particle, no field. So perhaps what I'm suggesting is too metaphysical and this will just get uglier and uglier I have emailed a friend for input, a colleague of Stephen Barrrmax there is an idea (stemming from the ZP field you allude to) where gravity comes about from motion of charge so I think much like parallel currents attracting one another (cf biot savart) b/c matter travels forward in time, gravity is one sided and attractive.
 
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Man
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 5th, 2007, 12:28 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: vixenIt looks like different people are using the same word to mean different things and therefore this discussion is just about language!Please define 'nothing' and 'exist'.Nothing, as in the empty set or depending on the mathematical context sometimes expressed as, 0.Exist, as in a non-empty set or depending on the mathematical context sometimes expressed as, x.
Last edited by Man on April 4th, 2007, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Collector
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 5th, 2007, 12:30 pm

a good? populistic introduction to this is nothingness: The Science of Empty Space, and The Book of NothingThey will give you more questions than answers I am afraid (and both very populistic). Our theories in physics are still incomplete in particular when it comes to nothing, some theories are probably better than others, and until proven by empirical facts it is more like religion.
Last edited by Collector on April 4th, 2007, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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vixen
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 5th, 2007, 12:41 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: ManQuoteOriginally posted by: vixenIt looks like different people are using the same word to mean different things and therefore this discussion is just about language!Please define 'nothing' and 'exist'.Nothing, as in an empty set or depending on the mathematical context sometimes expressed as, 0.Exist, as in a non-empty set or depending on the mathematical context sometimes expressed as, x.So, is the question: Is an 'empty set' also a 'non-empty set' !!!???
 
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Man
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 5th, 2007, 12:47 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: vixenQuoteOriginally posted by: ManQuoteOriginally posted by: vixenIt looks like different people are using the same word to mean different things and therefore this discussion is just about language!Please define 'nothing' and 'exist'.Nothing, as in an empty set or depending on the mathematical context sometimes expressed as, 0.Exist, as in a non-empty set or depending on the mathematical context sometimes expressed as, x.So, is the question: Is an 'empty set' also a 'non-empty set' !!!???I didn't correct myself before you quoted me, instead of "an empty set" it should be "the empty set."But, yes the question could also be restated as, is the empty set also a non-empty set (or simply, a set). We can restate this again as, does the empty set exist?
Last edited by Man on April 4th, 2007, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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zeta
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 5th, 2007, 12:49 pm

so this is a math thingy?
 
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Man
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Does "nothing" exist?

April 5th, 2007, 12:55 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: zetaso this is a math thingy?This is beyond math, I would assert.