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Beavis
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 4th, 2003, 5:28 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: AminLongTheta, I agree with you that it seems stupid to me to discuss these thngs on a forum. Many people do not care and those who care already have a mindset which they do not want to dump. Such discussions really get very polarized very soon.Now I really respect Jews. In Us, I saw that they generally have great ethics in tems of hardwork and love of scholarship and I was truly impressed by that. But some simple things about Arab-Israeli conflict simply do not seem right. Here are some observations.Israel occupied most of the Arab territories in 1967 war and Israel started the war under the pre-emptive strike pretext. Israel was the aggressor. But nobody for decades cared about whether Israel should return the lands to their inhabitants. Most of it Israel considers its integral part. I do not see how it could be condoned by anyone with a sense of justice.While any jew has a right to return after several thousand years, Palestinians that were forcibly removed from their homes just thirty years ago apparently do not qualify for any right of return and Israel considers it something it won't even argue about. Zerdna, you have a great knowledge of history and religions. Would you like to tell our friends what happened in Sabra and Shatila refugee camps? Trust me it was modern Nazis.But again as I know, even several Israelis do not support these policies.The reason why most of the world is not aggressively taking the side of the Palestinians is because they behave like animals. The blow themselves up for no reason. No civilized country with intelligent citizens does this or can even begin to understand why someone would do such a bizarre and ignorant thing. If it were not for this type of behavior, many more countries would side with the Palestinians and Israel would not be allowed to conduct much of the illegal behavior it gets away with today.
 
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Marsden
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 4th, 2003, 5:43 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnathanks marsden. if i take the usual complementing adjectives out of your post, your statement is it is about US. I guess it is a part of it.Yes; really, the US part of it is most significant. I think there is also an element of "the West" inflicting Israeli behavior on the Palestinians, and therefore Europeans, e.g., having responsibility for it as well.QuoteI don't want to argue whether the phone call or stop of aid from US would have stopped this conflict -- i personally think it's pretty naive. If i remember correctly, US was not involved for a long time, it didnt stop this conflict or Arab-Israeli wars.I was using poetic license; my point is that if there were any real threat to US aid, Israel would do whatever we asked. Most of the rest of the world would have to see the military buildup on their borders before taking us seriously. QuoteThe context of my argument was that 1) comparison between Nazi and Zionist/Israeli that is so often heard here, has no factual merit.I wouldn't say "no factual merit," but certainly very little -- less than anyone I've seen make the comparison seems to think -- and in any case far more hurtful than productive.Quote2) the conflict between israeli and palestinians is comparatively small in terms of a death toll and violence as far as modern conflicts go.True enough.QuoteMy conclusion was that the reason for the extreme attention lies not in the extremity of the conflict, but elsewhere. It could be founded in pro/anti/americanism instead of a pro/anti/israeli sentiment, it is really immaterial for the argument.I'd look instead to the cross-cultural nature of the conflict. South Africa, for similar reasons, received even more attention than Israel prior to Apartheid's fall. There is a difference between a brutal dictator who rises from among your own people and a regime imposed from outside: the latter has no stake in preserving your society. A bad individual is far more easily survived than a flourishing attitude such as racism in an entire culture. Israel culturally is more a part of Europe than of the Middle East, and not a small amount of that I think is because that is what the Israelis want rather than because the Arabs don't want to have anything to do with them: I've never been able to find out how many Israeli Jews make a point of learning Arabic -- which would seem as sensible a thing to do as a Texan Anglo learning Spanish -- but I doubt that it is a large number. Yes, the Tutsis and Hutus are separate cultures, but neither of them is very much more linked to Western or European culture than the other, so their cross-cultural conflict doesn't pierce the borders of Western culture.
Last edited by Marsden on September 3rd, 2003, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Amin
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 4th, 2003, 6:25 pm

QuoteBEAVIS: The reason why most of the world is not aggressively taking the side of the Palestinians is because they behave like animals.I think Israeli Government understands this point very well. Soon all the animal will be in a zoo inside the fence.
 
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Omar
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 5th, 2003, 1:15 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: AminWould you like to tell our friends what happened in Sabra and Shatila refugee camps? Trust me it was modern Nazis.I was not in Lebanon at the time of Sabra and Shatila, but I lived the events in the sense of following what took place on a continuous basis. That was in 1981, or was it 1982. It was before the internet and CNN, and the information that we received was delayed, but it was very moving. It was terrible. It was a massacre by all accounts. The Israeli army let their henchmen, the Lebanese militia do the job, while they stood there and watched. Sharon supervised the operation. I remember hearing how the Israeli lit the place up at night so the militia could keep on going. Someone would say, "But they didn't kill as many people as were killed in Congo". But that's completely beside the point. It's exactly like the argument that some people like to give that, no, the number of Jewish people killed in the holocaust was less than 6 million. Who cares? It's not the number, as much as the intent.
 
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zerdna
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September 5th, 2003, 3:16 am

what phalangistas did there was a horrible crime. I appologize for not knowing the story well, i heard a claim that Sharon arranged that. I also heard a counterclaim that this was done by phalangistas as operation against PLO fighters and revenge for the death of their president assasinated hours before and other former brutalities of the PLO against the Lebanese. I wonder why there was no successful lawsuit against Sharon during last 20 years if evidence against him exists? I suppose a lawsuit could be brought in Israel itself, US, or outside wherever appropriate laws against military crime, crime against humanity, etc exist. I know i am gonna make you mad, but it just seems unreasonable to believe word for word every accusation i hear from Arabs against Israeli or vice versa -- there is just too much grief against each other. Also, an image of Iraqi minister of information is still fresh in my memory . What is known and how about Israeli participation? I understand Israeli military were nearby, although i am not clear on their numbers in these locations and status. Since you mentioned Congo, similarly French troops were present there and watched people slaughtering each other by millions. Is there anything specific on Israeli army except for not interfering with the slaughter?In terms of your statement, "it's not the numbers, it is the intent" i disagree. This is just another phrase many people repeat mindlessly. I personally don't agree with it and i don't believe you do. You wouldn't have grieved so much more about the death of many people in Sabra and Shatila than about a death of one person elsewhere. In terms of the Holocost, i think two things are important -- the numbers themselves and meticulous mechanics of the thought through, efficient extermination. Numbers are known i thought pretty accurately -- european jews were accounted for with the usual German punctuality. The range exists because of the Russian Jews. As far as i know the range is 5-6 millions.
 
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Omar
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 5th, 2003, 3:58 am

I was in the US at the time of Sabra and Shatilla. All my information came from US media, or the BBC. I read the NY Times religiously those days. Sharon was definitely involved. He was present at the scene. I know that, because I clearly recall conversations that I had with Americans (many Jewish) at the time. I remember one of them saying "But he really has good intentions". Seriously.And let's not get into the numbers thing, please. And, please, zerdna, please, don't second guess what I believe or not believe, or the sources of my information, or whatever. If you want to know what I believe, or where I get my information from, ask me. I remember your guesses about my national origin, and where I grew up and where I lived and all that, a while ago. All of which were wrong. really. We do not all fall into types, that are well classified and documented. Some of us may really surprise you.And, by the way, you cannot read someone's mood from a post on the web. We are all different, and the way that I write may "sound" in your head as emotional or angry or whatever, while I'm simply in a hurry, and wish to be clear by repeating what I say, rather than choosing my words.This is actually the reason why I refuse to have any work related discussions by e-mail. People try to read nuances into what a poorly written text, and it leads to misunderstandings at no end.I have no problem with you, and I'm under the impression that you're a decent person. But you're not as good as reading people as you think
 
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DominicConnor
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 5th, 2003, 10:17 am

Much as with the US in Iraq, I suspect that the Brits underestimated the difficulty of the effort.Possible, entirely consistent with my view that policy at this time was confused. However, if that was the error made by Britain, it is a strange one to make given the experience we had with such issues in other places. I agree that Israel cannot survive without a powerful patron, but the real question is, did Britain realize that this would be the case and that the task would be too great for Britain?I don't think so. My view is that "Britain" didn't reall think these things through at all. Various officials did what they thought best as they went along. And they even went so far as to compensate fellahin (peasants) who they were displacing from tenant farms. But the land prices skyrocketed, and they simply could not afford to buy very much more.So they stole it.Not a way to make friends.when the locals started realizing what was going on and doing all they could to limit land sales to Zionists.Bog standard market forces. Again, the perception mattered more than the fact: what did the British think was the case?I think the consensus was that the Brits lamented the fact that Arabs were not capable of unity. "Unity" was seen as a gola in itself in those days. Sure they didn't want an evil arab empire, but a peaceful united states of Arabia would have been an attractive trading partner.Most of the rest of your comments need to look more at the perception -- as suggested in the now laughable comments -- than at the fact.Agrred that perception is important here, however again the near consensus was a vague sadness at the disunity. Many Brits had a really quite positive view of Arabs, a sort of noble savage, faithful to his god. Living close to nature, honest and a fearsome fighter, not unlike the romantic view of Amerinds held by many today. Some of course just saw them as wogs, again there isn't a single clear view.The State Department in the US was from the very beginning anti-Israel. They pretty reasonably decided that it was better to keep on good terms with 100 million oil-controlling Arabs than with 10 million Jews. US support for Israel has always, always been a domestic rather than a foreign policy matter. Indeed, and as I recall at that time there were rather few Jews.I have seem analyses of US foregn policy that support the notion that it is highly driven by the goal of stability at all costs. Thus keeping the status quo is valued over human rights, trade, or international relations.
 
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Beans
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 5th, 2003, 10:43 am

Arabic is taugh tin Isreali schools like Spanish in the States or French in the UK. Most non-Russian Jews speak some, many are fluent. Rememeber a lot of Isrealis grew up in Morocco etc.
 
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DominicConnor
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 5th, 2003, 1:55 pm

like French in the UKDo you mean that Israeli kids sit around looking bored whilst some witless artsgrad tries to teach them how to speak the style of Arabic used used in the 1930s ?Do Israeli kids utterly fail to learn Arabic in any way that allows them to actually speak to Arabs ?Does Israel spend vast amounts of mnoey failing to achieve anything ?That is how Brit kids "learn", French.
 
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Marsden
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 5th, 2003, 2:16 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaIs there anything specific on Israeli army except for not interfering with the slaughter?My understanding is that the IDF disarmed the camps before openning them up to the SLA. And the Israeli government itself found Sharon responsible for the massacre.
 
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DominicConnor
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September 8th, 2003, 7:14 am

That is my recollection as well. Scary really. No nation can engage in a struggle like Israel's without some people doing bad things. However, it is dangerous for the nation to allow them to get away with it. Even if you are 100% zionist with no care for Palestinians then Sharon is scary. Especially if you're a true Zionist. If politicians can do this sort of thing with impunity against enemy A, then you can be sure that they'll do it against enemy B. Are you enemy B ? Are you sure ? Former political allies are often the first for the chop.The 5th Reich again can be measured against the 3rd, by a quote:In Germany, they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist.Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics. I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak up.Martin Niemöller
 
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zerdna
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 8th, 2003, 1:08 pm

if there is any evidence sharon's involvement in sabra/shatila story i don't see how sharon could avoid being charged, tried, and sentenced. I am pretty surprised he hasn't been so far. However, i am not clear on what his motives would be. In case of Nazis or communists, 80% of the reasons for various repressions were cleansings of political opponents and potential political opponents of the ruling party leaders. "Final solution" had an upside of 1)expropriation of jewish property 2) explaining away the loss of the WWI and all ensuing troubles, including crappy german economics 3) creating an image of an omniprescent enemy which was and is the most unifiying force for any nation 4) creating a pretext for military expansion.Let's assume Sharon arranged the massacre. It's not like they killed Arafat and all the PLO militants. Bunch of women and old people were killed. What would the gain be for whomever? It's not like the idea could have been that Palestinians would be exterminated -- there are 6 million of Palestinians after all. Political or military opponents were not destroyed, just hardened. It created a wave of sympathy to palestinians all over the world, including Israel itself. Clearly no financial or territorial gain. If sharon was involved, it's not just a crime, its a very stupid crime. Independently of the issue of his involvement i don't see how this incident could be seen as a part of a routine, plan, scheme, system similar to what these things were in Berlin or Moscow.
 
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Marsden
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 8th, 2003, 1:24 pm

Zerdna, while there is not a small amount of evidence that Sharon thinks that killing Palestinians of any sort is something to be done as an end in and of itself, I think what was 'gained' was that a patch of territory was ethnically cleansed of Palestinians -- even if only women, old men, and children -- and this removed a spot to which the armed Palestinian men might return and be welcomed.
 
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LongTheta
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 8th, 2003, 7:44 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaif there is any evidence sharon's involvement in sabra/shatila story i don't see how sharon could avoid being charged, tried, and sentenced. I am pretty surprised he hasn't been so far. However, i am not clear on what his motives would be. In case of Nazis or communists, 80% of the reasons for various repressions were cleansings of political opponents and potential political opponents of the ruling party leaders. "Final solution" had an upside of 1)expropriation of jewish property 2) explaining away the loss of the WWI and all ensuing troubles, including crappy german economics 3) creating an image of an omniprescent enemy which was and is the most unifiying force for any nation 4) creating a pretext for military expansion.Let's assume Sharon arranged the massacre. It's not like they killed Arafat and all the PLO militants. Bunch of women and old people were killed. What would the gain be for whomever? It's not like the idea could have been that Palestinians would be exterminated -- there are 6 million of Palestinians after all. Political or military opponents were not destroyed, just hardened. It created a wave of sympathy to palestinians all over the world, including Israel itself. Clearly no financial or territorial gain. If sharon was involved, it's not just a crime, its a very stupid crime. Independently of the issue of his involvement i don't see how this incident could be seen as a part of a routine, plan, scheme, system similar to what these things were in Berlin or Moscow.zerdna, this was disgusting.
 
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zerdna
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Question to Paul-Is Nazilike propaganda allowed in your forum??

September 8th, 2003, 9:37 pm

LT, i don't know what you meant -- typically you were shorter on arguments than on emotions . Probably you meant some usual stuff to the tune of "zerdna, the famous uber-zionist conspirator-apologist". I frankly don't know that much about the whole israeli-palestinian conflict and not that i care about it more than about anything else, like some people seem to be. I personally think that the idea of creating Israel in palestine was a pretty crappy one. It's just so many people accuse israelis with so much force, conviction and emotion, that i press the opposite case to flush out what the argument is really based on, how strong are the facts that underlie the strong statements, comparisons and accusations.
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