SERVING THE QUANTITATIVE FINANCE COMMUNITY

 
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migalley
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June 20th, 2005, 12:17 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerQuoteOriginally posted by: NeigeOne is told to make sure to write a "thank you" note ater his interview to show that he appreciates the time people took to interview him. Fair enough, I do appreciate that, and do write those emails sincerely.I've never interviewed and gotten a job at any place like the ones you mentioned. But it seems to me this shouldn't be so mechanical and formal. At your age, you might actually develop a sort of connection with some of these people. If you want to work in the industry and product they work in, you should know someone they know, or expect to see them at a conference or something.It strikes me as not quite right the way you put it. Like you were interviewing to sleep in someone's bed, expecting to be lying there alone. If you can't relate to these people and develop a rapport, and if you can so easily be tipped towards actually being angry at them, probably you are a bad fit. Where's the love?Maybe people in finance have better social skills and higher social expectations than people in aerospace. Or maybe you came across as not entrepreneurial enough, or something. Or maybe you just let on that you were interviewing for aerospace at the same time, or that you liked the United States but did not have a passion specifically for any one industry, just any job to get a green card.The idea that you can't figure out a way to stick around or come back, if you really are passionate about a specific line of work, also strikes me as a little odd. The finance industry is not some sort of automatic teller machine for green cards. If you're just going to hit and run and get angry in five seconds, then good riddance.I am "sincerely thankful" when the sewer guy comes and makes my pipes flow, doesn't mean we understood a word each other said...Ah, that old chestnut about finance ppl being somehow of higher social skills than mere aerospace/engineering workers... Yes, I'm sure they all have flat caps, oil stained overalls, greasy hair, and don't know which knife is the fish knife! Maybe he is wrong to be angry if he is actually angry at rejection, but it does beg the question that why don't companies even have the common courtesy and decency to reply after he has made the effort to attand an interview? After all, if none of us went for interviews, the GS's and MS's of the world would have to employ the sewer guy in our place (horror of horrors!!!)As for trying to work in aerospace, and it somehow showing a lack of commitment. I think this is a ridiculous attitude to take knowing how difficult it is to get into finance (even for well-qualified ppl). Personally I believe that it shows a mature attitude to the realities of the job market, but I realise that I may be in a minority here.I think he shouldn't be too distressed if he can't work in US. That is unless he has to return to Iraq. If he has the opportunity to go to other countries, then I'm sure he can find good opportunities in Europe or Oz or Far East.MG
 
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Neige
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Joined: April 13th, 2005, 1:25 pm

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June 20th, 2005, 3:22 pm

MG, you understood what I was trying to say. I'm not mad at rejections, I was only complaining about the courtesy to reply, that's all. However, in all fairness Bear Stearns today finally replied (after two my emails)that they are interviewing other candidats before making a final decision.Being kicked out of the US would suck big time for me for many reasons, but I'll live. I don't have the opportunities to go to other countries, but I'll work on that. Being in my own country (Russia) is just no fun for me - I know English very well, and I've been studying French for the last year.I'm going to the Immigration lawyer today ($200 per damn hour!), maybe we can come up with some magic to save my soul .
 
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migalley
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June 21st, 2005, 9:02 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: NeigeMG, you understood what I was trying to say. I'm not mad at rejections, I was only complaining about the courtesy to reply, that's all. However, in all fairness Bear Stearns today finally replied (after two my emails)that they are interviewing other candidats before making a final decision.Being kicked out of the US would suck big time for me for many reasons, but I'll live. I don't have the opportunities to go to other countries, but I'll work on that. Being in my own country (Russia) is just no fun for me - I know English very well, and I've been studying French for the last year.I'm going to the Immigration lawyer today ($200 per damn hour!), maybe we can come up with some magic to save my soul .Yeah, I knew exactly what you meant as I have spent many years on the outside looking in and faced the attitudes which have been mentioned in the previous messages:-For example,i) No replies whatsoever from the majority of interviews taken.ii) I must be some sort of retard because I worked in aerospace as an engineer.iii) I obviously have no commitment even though I have tried for 12 years to get into finance.iv) I also obviously have no social skills whatsoever, even though I have many years of customer support experience (but I forgot that it was in aerospace so obviously it doesn't count as it was supporting customers who also would have no social skills )If that lawyer is $200/hour, maybe I should have become a lawyer instead. Seems an easier way to make money than all this finance stuff I hope that your Bear selection process goes well, and that you don't need to fork out the $200. Hope you can save it for instead
 
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farmer
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June 21st, 2005, 9:17 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: migalleyIf that lawyer is $200/hour, maybe I should have become a lawyer instead. Seems an easier way to make money than all this finance stuff You're another one, then.Like I said in a thread on gambling, if you simply love to play games, then you can get really excited about making $9 an hour playing poker. Because you're beating the game.Marvin Olasky recently wrote an essay called "Poker vs. Purpose". In it, he criticizes some articles about "hot jobs" and how to get them:QuoteWhat's missing from both articles is one word, "calling," a word suggesting that God calls people -- sometimes dramatically, often subtly -- into various occupations that productively use their God-given talents. We need money, but money's not the prime reason for working, and by itself does not make a job "useful." Only one counter-argument really works, and I hope someone takes it up in a commencement address. It starts this way: The worth of a job is not defined by what it allows you to do when you're not working. A job should employ God-given talents in a way that glorifies Him. Individuals may have to study hard, prepare hard and work hard to get a job like that. But a job like that is worth striving for. Settling for something that just presents material rewards and off-the-job pleasure is trading away our birthright.No matter what you do, you're probably going to end up with a cute wife, two kids, a house with a white picket fence, and certainly a grave stone with your name on it. But if you have a special skill which can contribute to human progress, you are morally obligated to try to use it.
 
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migalley
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June 21st, 2005, 9:41 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerQuoteOriginally posted by: migalleyIf that lawyer is $200/hour, maybe I should have become a lawyer instead. Seems an easier way to make money than all this finance stuff You're another one, then.Like I said in a thread on gambling, if you simply love to play games, then you can get really excited about making $9 an hour playing poker. Because you're beating the game.Marvin Olasky recently wrote an essay called "Poker vs. Purpose". In it, he criticizes some articles about "hot jobs" and how to get them:QuoteWhat's missing from both articles is one word, "calling," a word suggesting that God calls people -- sometimes dramatically, often subtly -- into various occupations that productively use their God-given talents. We need money, but money's not the prime reason for working, and by itself does not make a job "useful." Only one counter-argument really works, and I hope someone takes it up in a commencement address. It starts this way: The worth of a job is not defined by what it allows you to do when you're not working. A job should employ God-given talents in a way that glorifies Him. Individuals may have to study hard, prepare hard and work hard to get a job like that. But a job like that is worth striving for. Settling for something that just presents material rewards and off-the-job pleasure is trading away our birthright.No matter what you do, you're probably going to end up with a cute wife, two kids, a house with a white picket fence, and certainly a grave stone with your name on it. But if you have a special skill which can contribute to human progress, you are morally obligated to try to use it.As an atheist, I don't believe in any God-given talents. I believe that my talents (such as they are) are due to genetics (heredity), environment and upbringing (schooling, for want of a better word).Actually I was being sarcastic about becoming a lawyer. There is no way I'd ever want to associate myself with that profession even though they make a huge amount of money, and I'm sure that I'm clever enough to do it.While it is true that ppl should strive for what they believe in, there comes a time when many individuals see that their endeavours are not leading to the rewards which they had hoped for, even if they are qualified. After all, there is only so much striving a human can do before reality hits them on the head, and they go for an easier option.
 
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TraderJoe
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June 21st, 2005, 10:38 am

>>>even though I have tried for 12 years to get into financeThat's a looonnngggggg time to keep trying to get into something. Maybe God was trying to tell you something?
 
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Blazes
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June 21st, 2005, 10:38 am

Have regular arguments with a colleague about the merits of the investment business versus gambling. He maintains that investment is ultimately about allocating capital into productive uses and hence different from gambling. While I agree to an extent I would argue that the majority of investment management/ trading is the same as gambling. The act of lending somebody money to buy a decent place to live (a la "It's a Wonderful Life") and indeed having the skills to distinguish between "good" and "bad" borrowers so that one can continue to have the credibility to remain doing the same function can be seen as having a general social benefit, However the trading of secondary mortgage backed securities is probably of more limited value. At which end of the business is there greater prestige and greater personal money making potential? Like it or not the "value" and prestige of a career in trading/money management is correlated more or less perfectly with the money making potential. I believe that people who see social value in there careers and who are good at what they do are happier (I have an orthopaedic surgeon acquaintance who works longer, harder and probably for less money than I who appears infinitely happier). As regards a career choice between gambling and say trading major negatives of gambling are the prestige factor and the lack of an externally imposed risk discipline but the positives are the honesty and the lack of a controlling organisation.
 
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migalley
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June 21st, 2005, 1:26 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: TraderJoe>>>even though I have tried for 12 years to get into financeThat's a looonnngggggg time to keep trying to get into something. Maybe God was trying to tell you something?Yep, maybe he is, but as I'm a deaf atheist, I won't be listening, unless that is he strikes me down like in a Charlton Heston movie! HahahaAfter all, it costs almost nothing to keep on applying, and who knows, I may strike lucky, although I do admit it might be an extremely long shot. However, if I don't apply, there is zero chance of getting in, so best to keep on trying and see what the dice show.
 
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Olya
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June 21st, 2005, 4:07 pm

migalley,I'm glad you joined this forum. Some time ago most interesting (IMHO) members where thrown away, and this place became dominated by people like farmer. I hope this can still change back to good if there will be more posts like yours.Neige, Did you try OPT? If you get your PhD in US you have a right to stay there for one year more (or even 18 months depending on what type of visa you had) if you apply for so called Optional Practical Training. What is good you don't have to have a job to apply, you practically always get it, and then you can work anywhere "related to education" which is easy to prove to be anything .
 
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TraderJoe
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June 21st, 2005, 4:09 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: migalleyQuoteOriginally posted by: TraderJoe>>>even though I have tried for 12 years to get into financeThat's a looonnngggggg time to keep trying to get into something. Maybe God was trying to tell you something?Yep, maybe he is, but as I'm a deaf atheist, I won't be listening, unless that is he strikes me down like in a Charlton Heston movie! HahahaAfter all, it costs almost nothing to keep on applying, and who knows, I may strike lucky, although I do admit it might be an extremely long shot. However, if I don't apply, there is zero chance of getting in, so best to keep on trying and see what the dice show.But after 12 years... What kind of jobs are you applying for? CEO?
 
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TraderJoe
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June 21st, 2005, 4:14 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Olyamigalley,I'm glad you joined this forum. Some time ago most interesting (IMHO) members where thrown away, and this place became dominated by people like farmer. I hope this can still change back to good if there will be more posts like yours.Neige, Did you try OPT? If you get your PhD in US you have a right to stay there for one year more (or even 18 months depending on what type of visa you had) if you apply for so called Optional Practical Training. What is good you don't have to have a job to apply, you practically always get it, and then you can work anywhere "related to education" which is easy to prove to be anything .Now I can see why you don't like farmer.
 
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Neige
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Joined: April 13th, 2005, 1:25 pm

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June 21st, 2005, 4:19 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: OlyaNeige, Did you try OPT? If you get your PhD in US you have a right to stay there for one year more (or even 18 months depending on what type of visa you had) if you apply for so called Optional Practical Training. What is good you don't have to have a job to apply, you practically always get it, and then you can work anywhere "related to education" which is easy to prove to be anything .Olya, I have used my year of OPT 3 years ago. I'm doing research on J-1 (which is _without_ home residency requirement) now. There are two ways I can stay (not counting becoming a student): get a job on H1, or get a green card. I'm working on both. Something will turn up. Thanks for your suggestion!
 
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migalley
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June 21st, 2005, 7:06 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: TraderJoeBut after 12 years... What kind of jobs are you applying for? CEO?Oh, nothing so grand as a CEO position, just your bog-standard analyst/associate type positions
 
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migalley
Posts: 3696
Joined: June 13th, 2005, 10:54 am

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June 21st, 2005, 7:12 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Olyamigalley,I'm glad you joined this forum. Some time ago most interesting (IMHO) members where thrown away, and this place became dominated by people like farmer. I hope this can still change back to good if there will be more posts like yours.Glad to be of service. Stay tuned for more high jinks and adventures!In all honesty, I hope that in discussing serious subjects such as these we can still have fun so that we all feel good when we visit the forums.
 
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farmer
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Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

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June 21st, 2005, 7:17 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: OlyaSome time ago most interesting (IMHO) members where thrown away, and this place became dominated by people like farmer.You mean honest people? Because an honest person would note:1) At most three people were banned at the time - in the history of the forum,2) The behavior of the main person was absolutely intolerable and unexcusable, enough to outweigh even the redeeming characteristics of the most respected forum participant (which he was not), leaving the forum administrator with no choice, and particularly considering that person's manipulative campaigns to turn people like you into soldiers,3) The main banning offense related to him having already started another forum - meaning he wanted to leave months before he was banned - the primary use of which forum was to talk trash about this forum and slander the people on it, including the administrator, and4) When the forum administrator took the extremely rare but occasionally necessary step of editing forum content, some of those people just blew up like little children and chose to escalate it and turn completely subversive (probably as a result of previous life experiences with, and sensitivity to, rejection).To "throw away" implies some kind of irrational behavior on part of the forum administrator. The characterization is dishonest, when referring to the actions taken by the Wilmott administrator at the time.
Last edited by farmer on June 20th, 2005, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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