QuoteOriginally posted by: punkfanatic3000Would like to go to risk.Why don't you consider going into FO? Less "talking", better pay...longer hours.

QuoteOriginally posted by: overkill112358QuoteOriginally posted by: punkfanatic3000Would like to go to risk.Why don't you consider going into FO? Less "talking", better pay...longer hours.hilarious

QuoteOriginally posted by: punkfanatic3000Yes in Model Val. The problem is a lot about discussion on process rather than getting things done.my guess is BofA

QuoteOriginally posted by: DevonFangsQuoteOriginally posted by: punkfanatic3000Yes in Model Val. The problem is a lot about discussion on process rather than getting things done.my guess is BofAit's not that bad over here....

QuoteOriginally posted by: DevonFangsQuoteOriginally posted by: overkill112358QuoteOriginally posted by: punkfanatic3000Would like to go to risk.Why don't you consider going into FO? Less "talking", better pay...longer hours.hilariousWhat's so funny? If that's not the case for you, maybe you are doing something wrong?

QuoteOriginally posted by: overkill112358QuoteOriginally posted by: DevonFangsQuoteOriginally posted by: overkill112358QuoteOriginally posted by: punkfanatic3000Would like to go to risk.Why don't you consider going into FO? Less "talking", better pay...longer hours.hilariousWhat's so funny? If that's not the case for you, maybe you are doing something wrong?the funny part is that it is not so much the case for FO.

I guess you ThinkDifferent and DevonFangs speak out of experience. If one is currently working in FO being paid no more than in a MV role, what's the point of stying unless one is trying to become a trader? I think it is not a big secret that working in FO is tougher than in MV, its more time and health consuming. Given that you joined this forum quite a while ago, I don't assume that you have just graduated, but rather that you have some non work related interests like family or whatever. I am not sure why one would sacifice that at no cash benefit...

QuoteOriginally posted by: overkill112358I guess you ThinkDifferent and DevonFangs speak out of experience. If one is currently working in FO being paid no more than in a MV role, what's the point of stying unless one is trying to become a trader? I think it is not a big secret that working in FO is tougher than in MV, its more time and health consuming. Given that you joined this forum quite a while ago, I don't assume that you have just graduated, but rather that you have some non work related interests like family or whatever. I am not sure why one would sacifice that at no cash benefit...DF could clarify his comment, but my reading of it at the time was that your casual "Why don't you consider going into FO?" question was funny on account that this forum and others like it are littered with threads full of requests for help on how to get out of model validation and into roles closer to the trading desk, and so, presumably, this was not exactly a brilliant new idea. As for your follow-up question, if history is any guide (a not completely trivial proviso the way the banking world is shaping up) the closer you are to where profit is generated the more upside potential you have. Some people are also adrenaline junkies and actually enjoy the faster paced nature of the trading floor. And, on the other side, some risk management groups involve a level of bureaucracy that could bring down the health and spirits of the sturdiest of quants, even if only endured from 9 to 5...

QuoteOriginally posted by: bearishQuoteOriginally posted by: overkill112358I guess you ThinkDifferent and DevonFangs speak out of experience. If one is currently working in FO being paid no more than in a MV role, what's the point of stying unless one is trying to become a trader? I think it is not a big secret that working in FO is tougher than in MV, its more time and health consuming. Given that you joined this forum quite a while ago, I don't assume that you have just graduated, but rather that you have some non work related interests like family or whatever. I am not sure why one would sacifice that at no cash benefit...DF could clarify his comment, but my reading of it at the time was that your casual "Why don't you consider going into FO?" question was funny on account that this forum and others like it are littered with threads full of requests for help on how to get out of model validation and into roles closer to the trading desk, and so, presumably, this was not exactly a brilliant new idea. As for your follow-up question, if history is any guide (a not completely trivial proviso the way the banking world is shaping up) the closer you are to where profit is generated the more upside potential you have. Some people are also adrenaline junkies and actually enjoy the faster paced nature of the trading floor. And, on the other side, some risk management groups involve a level of bureaucracy that could bring down the health and spirits of the sturdiest of quants, even if only endured from 9 to 5...That's fair enough. It is quite difficult to move from MV to FO indeed - and one needs to be good and have some luck with open positions. I must admit that when I wrote "Why don't you consider going into FO?" I was under the impression that I knew the person who I was talking to. I though it was a friend of mine who I trust was able to land an FO job easily. I later found out that it wasn't him. I was just wondering why the better pay cuased DF to feel amused...

QuoteOriginally posted by: overkill112358QuoteOriginally posted by: bearishQuoteOriginally posted by: overkill112358I guess you ThinkDifferent and DevonFangs speak out of experience. If one is currently working in FO being paid no more than in a MV role, what's the point of stying unless one is trying to become a trader? I think it is not a big secret that working in FO is tougher than in MV, its more time and health consuming. Given that you joined this forum quite a while ago, I don't assume that you have just graduated, but rather that you have some non work related interests like family or whatever. I am not sure why one would sacifice that at no cash benefit...DF could clarify his comment, but my reading of it at the time was that your casual "Why don't you consider going into FO?" question was funny on account that this forum and others like it are littered with threads full of requests for help on how to get out of model validation and into roles closer to the trading desk, and so, presumably, this was not exactly a brilliant new idea. As for your follow-up question, if history is any guide (a not completely trivial proviso the way the banking world is shaping up) the closer you are to where profit is generated the more upside potential you have. Some people are also adrenaline junkies and actually enjoy the faster paced nature of the trading floor. And, on the other side, some risk management groups involve a level of bureaucracy that could bring down the health and spirits of the sturdiest of quants, even if only endured from 9 to 5...That's fair enough. It is quite difficult to move from MV to FO indeed - and one needs to be good and have some luck with open positions. I must admit that when I wrote "Why don't you consider going into FO?" I was under the impression that I knew the person who I was talking to. I though it was a friend of mine who I trust was able to land an FO job easily. I later found out that it wasn't him. I was just wondering why the better pay cuased DF to feel amused...Pay is only marginally better for quants. Directors make about the same in risk and markets in terms of base, and anyway the EXCEPTIONAL++%£ bonuses for quants are unlikely unless you joined pre-Lehman. Plus you got the frustration that the high-dopamine ADHD trader-monkey sitting next to you has the problem that the tenants living in his third house are moving out, dang, vs in model validation the guy sitting next to you does something like credit risk, eats microwaved soup and only talks about his children. Job is better in FO though. Also, I'm not sure I used to work shorter hours when I was in risk.

Pay can be significantly higher in some ibs like 1.5 ratio for VP and almost 2 for Director.

I worked at 3 IBs, and as of lately (last 2 years) the pay in terms of base is largely compareable. (i.e. nowhere close to 1.5-2.0 ratios). Surprisingly, even the bonus is not too far off. And when you start thinking in terms of pay per hour, then FO falls well behind. there are exceptions of course on either side.

Agree

We have to add in to the mix, how easy/hard it is to get to various levels like director in different departments in different banks.

QuoteOriginally posted by: DominicConnorWe have to add in to the mix, how easy/hard it is to get to various levels like director in different departments in different banks.easier in risk, as far as I see here