SERVING THE QUANTITATIVE FINANCE COMMUNITY

 
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gatarek
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 7:33 am

Last edited by gatarek on February 24th, 2004, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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FDAXHunter
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 7:37 am

So, you're saying that you suck at making any money with your model, but you think there are other people out there who stole your idea and now make a billion a day with it.Then you are saying, that actually doesn't make you a loser, but rather a philantropist?Did I get that right?
 
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gatarek
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 8:08 am

Last edited by gatarek on February 24th, 2004, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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kapital
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 8:10 am

It comes out that I subside people much wealthier then me and that happens beyond my decision a strange kind of philanthropy.how many other people's models, papers, etc did you use to come up with your model? and how do you slice off that piece of revenue that is due to just your specific INCREMENTAL improvement on the body of knowledge that's already in existence.and, you don't have to release anything into the public domain unless you desire. no one forces you to publish.also, i think there are people trying to protect their models. i came across a site the other day where the company had patented (in Ireland) two or three key aspects of their model (or rather ways of calibrating it). besides, with that amazon 1-click bullshit getting patented, i'm sure you probably could "protect" your IP if you wanted to try.but more than anything, i'd be curious to know, what model is it that YOU have contributed, that so many people are using to make money and have just left you in the dust? when i think of the history of IR models for instance, those guys are making big bank either working in consulting firms or banks. in the cases where they are not, it is pure choice. i'm sure those guys are making way more money doing that (for a lot less stress and hassle) than they would be trading their own models. if the model is really that ground breaking (like a vasicek or something) there is clearly a beaten path to profit from it. I recently noticed that financial models are probably the only human contribution, which is not legally protected.how about law? after it appears in court, it's all in the public domain. there are no law firms with a lock on a certain type of defense. probably are other examples too. just was the first to come to mind.
 
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FDAXHunter
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 8:19 am

Gatarek: we may notice that quite soon all of us will be just dying. Speak for yourself, homey. I am a Highlander!
 
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Nonius
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 8:29 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: kapital<i>It comes out that I subside people much wealthier then me and that happens beyond my decision a strange kind of philanthropy.</i>how many other people's models, papers, etc did you use to come up with your model? and how do you slice off that piece of revenue that is due to just your specific INCREMENTAL improvement on the body of knowledge that's already in existence.and, you don't have to release anything into the public domain unless you desire. no one forces you to publish.also, i think there are people trying to protect their models. i came across a site the other day where the company had patented (in Ireland) two or three key aspects of their model (or rather ways of calibrating it). besides, with that amazon 1-click bullshit getting patented, i'm sure you probably could "protect" your IP if you wanted to try.but more than anything, i'd be curious to know, what model is it that YOU have contributed, that so many people are using to make money and have just left you in the dust? when i think of the history of IR models for instance, those guys are making big bank either working in consulting firms or banks. in the cases where they are not, it is pure choice. i'm sure those guys are making way more money doing that (for a lot less stress and hassle) than they would be trading their own models. if the model is really that ground breaking (like a vasicek or something) there is clearly a beaten path to profit from it.<i> I recently noticed that financial models are probably the only human contribution, which is not legally protected.</i>how about law? after it appears in court, it's all in the public domain. there are no law firms with a lock on a certain type of defense. probably are other examples too. just was the first to come to mind.Time to implement Xanadu....where is that pot smokin' California hippie when I need him?
 
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Dook
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 8:47 am

Quotebut more than anything, i'd be curious to know, what model is it that YOU have contributed, that so many people are using to make money and have just left you in the dust? kapital:Gatarek as in BGM...
 
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gatarek
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 9:17 am

Last edited by gatarek on February 24th, 2004, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Nonius
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 11:12 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: gatarekGentlemen, I’m a big boy, so I know how to take care of myself. I think general rules (or their absence) and their consequences are more interesting then my modest person.Gatarek, you gotta decide whether you want to be a cigar chomping (or catnip munching) trader, or a leg-crossing intellectual...it boils down to that.
 
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gatarek
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 12:07 pm

Last edited by gatarek on February 24th, 2004, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Nonius
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 12:30 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: gatarekSorry Nonius, but you didn’t understand the problem, which is not personal wealth of someone (I’m quite well, thank you) or someone’s decision but an interpersonal space where we all dig. Without elementary protection of intellectual property of models, we will shortly arrive to the situation known from other non-protected areas. Wild animals were for free, so many species are extinct; natural resources were for free, so we have pollution and lunar landscapes in former industrial towns… What will happen to financial engineering? I don’t know. How to prevent from (possible) disasters? I don’t know. I'm rather pessimistic. But I expected discussion on that topic and not offences like <i>“that actually makes you a loser"</i> and <i>"what model is it that YOU have contributed, that so many people are using to make money and have just left you in the dust?"</i>. Sorry for being serious but sometimes you have to It's the nature of the beast Gatarek...people steal ideas, concepts, intellectual property ALL the time...from Shakespeare to Bill Gates to 99% of the quants, traders, and highfalutin marketing people on Wall Street who publish "Quantitative Notes" n sh it. A prof at my school back in the 80s wins a Nobel prize for proving, yes, proving, that you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket...my math prof (the same guy that told me that MY ideas were either brilliant, obvious, or wrong) used to chuckle about that hackneyed piece of work that everyone since Adam knew. I would never expect the concept of intellectual property to be enforceable in any way shape or form....thing of Paskov et al...anyone who worked WITH Paskov could rip off that simulator sooooo easily it is laughable...think of the clones of Napster (I personally hope the recording industry IS toast by the way).....because, at the end of the day, none of this sh it is so complex that a good Ph.D. in math, physics, or engineering (or, of course a French Engineer, bien sur) couldn't figure the sh it out for themselves.
 
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quantie
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 12:34 pm

Gatarek : I think its the nature of the beast that you can't monetize much of the IP here , most models seem to sit on the shoulders of others.Recent patents like the columbia patent on (#5940810) QMC (Traub/Paskov e.a) is a case in point. I am really curious to know about Columbia's efforts to collect money from all the institutions who use quasi Monte Carlo methods in pricing derivatives. And when we are done with that we'd have some scotsman , direct descendant of JohnNapier turn up at our door steps for collecting the dues with respect to the Logarithm function which I use incessantly. Having said that most parametrized models seem to have some tweak or mantra before it works its magic and there I guess is where remains the key.
 
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gatarek
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 1:07 pm

Last edited by gatarek on February 24th, 2004, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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kapital
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 1:57 pm

But I expected discussion on that topic and not offences like ... "what model is it that YOU have contributed....no offense - just a question. and it was answered.furthermore, as you say, it's not a money issue. if not, then what is it?so say you have total control over your model - who uses it/ what they do with that. and say that you're lucky enough that the chain starts with you, cuz if it didn't you'd probably be sitting on a big-time "cease and desist" yourself.1. what are you going to do with it that is more beneficial to society/the world of quant finance than is happening now? i mean what kind of dead weight loss are you going to fix here. natural resources are in a market exhibiting underinvestment/overuse. i just don't see that here. in quant finance it looks a helluva a lot more like over investment and under use to me.2. what would it mean for the next generation of models? if someone has read a paper relating to your model, does that mean you can censor what they do going forward? if not, then exactly what kind of control are you talking about?
 
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quantie
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Strange kind of philanthropy

June 11th, 2003, 2:10 pm

the first issue of the W-mag touched upon this and there was a thread on the forum on the columbia patent... to me the bizzare thing is how people with the strong arm of the law have been able to patent ridiculous things.Ralph Nader in wiredQuoteName one genius inventor who has gotten rich from a software patent. There must be some, but the system mostly benefits a handful of businesspeople and lawyers who don't write code. Look at British Telecom. It took years before BT's patent lawyers discovered the company had invented hypertext linking. Now General Electric claims it invented the JPEG file format. If GE is so smart, why did it take so many years to figure out it invented such a popular technology? Which genius inventors get rich on such claims? Oh Forgent's Jpeg patent means that any of us using JPEG images (includes the Fdax jpeg guru) would have to pay a license fee...howzaat?Or the really funny Method and system for conducting a discussion relating to an item which would mean everyone at wilmott would have to pay Jeff Bezos!
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