SERVING THE QUANTITATIVE FINANCE COMMUNITY

• 1
• 3
• 4
• 5
• 6
• 7
• 53

farmer
Posts: 13462
Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

### End of bitcoin?

QuoteOriginally posted by: AlanIf you want to speculate on some money thing because the supply is fixed, I suggest coin collecting.Bitcoins offer hope and change.

yugmorf2
Posts: 87
Joined: November 21st, 2010, 5:18 pm

### End of bitcoin?

QuoteOriginally posted by: AlanAt the end of the day, I still don't get the appeal of bitcoins to non-criminals for transaction purposes.I can imagine that might be the case if acceptance is so low that the advantages cannot be fully realized. However, if bitcoin usage becomes ubiquitous, I can think of several advantages:1) Transacting at a distance without the complications of having to organize through an intermediary (settlement time, bank account info, IBAN number, bank's address, etc etc.) 2) Avoiding the credit risk of transacting through an intermediary (think all those transactions that were left unpaid at the moment Lehman's went bust)3) Potentially significantly cheaper than going through an intermediary (bank and credit card charges etc). 4) No lower limit on transaction size (cf lower limits imposed by some stores on credit card transactions)

farmer
Posts: 13462
Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

### End of bitcoin?

QuoteOriginally posted by: yugmorf2However, if bitcoin usage becomes ubiquitous, I can think of several advantages:1) Transacting at a distance without the complications of having to organize through an intermediary (settlement time, bank account info, IBAN number, bank's address, etc etc.) 2) Avoiding the credit risk of transacting through an intermediary (think all those transactions that were left unpaid at the moment Lehman's went bust)3) Potentially significantly cheaper than going through an intermediary (bank and credit card charges etc). 4) No lower limit on transaction size (cf lower limits imposed by some stores on credit card transactions)Put simply, "fuck you, I never got it."

katastrofa
Posts: 8321
Joined: August 16th, 2007, 5:36 am
Location: Alpha Centauri

### End of bitcoin?

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: katastrofaI lost all my bitcoins in an erroneous transaction with bitmillions.com and I don't know how. Please help me make sense of this."Forgetting (or not knowing) to add a change output and thus spending your whole balance on miner fees is probably the most common mistake with the raw transaction api."There's only one word which describes a currency system which works like that, and this word is "RIDICULOUS".Don't ALL currency systems have this problem? It seems identical to a fat-fingered trade or putting one's money in a bag and then handing the bag to a counterparty. Paper money has the same the problems as bitcoin in terms of what happens if you accidentally lose it or give it away.Paper money doesn't get automatically redistributed to 100s of people.

katastrofa
Posts: 8321
Joined: August 16th, 2007, 5:36 am
Location: Alpha Centauri

### End of bitcoin?

Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

### End of bitcoin?

QuoteOriginally posted by: katastrofaQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: katastrofaI lost all my bitcoins in an erroneous transaction with bitmillions.com and I don't know how. Please help me make sense of this."Forgetting (or not knowing) to add a change output and thus spending your whole balance on miner fees is probably the most common mistake with the raw transaction api."There's only one word which describes a currency system which works like that, and this word is "RIDICULOUS".Don't ALL currency systems have this problem? It seems identical to a fat-fingered trade or putting one's money in a bag and then handing the bag to a counterparty. Paper money has the same the problems as bitcoin in terms of what happens if you accidentally lose it or give it away.Paper money doesn't get automatically redistributed to 100s of people.Of course it does. What do you think happened during the housing bubble -- banks gave big bags of money to borrowers and the borrowers dispersed it into the economy (to construction workers, home appliance retailers, construction materials suppliers, etc.). That's why banks couldn't simply ask for the money back and get it. What do you think happens when you buy an iPhone -- the money gets dispersed to all the workers that design, manufacture, distribute, and sell iPhones. I'd bet that most people and most businesses are net-dispersers of money (having more outflow destinations than inflow destinations). The exception would be retailers (the number of customers exceeds the numbers of employees + suppliers) and retail banks (the number of retail depositors exceeds the number of borrowers).If anything bitcoin is superior to paper money because you can trace the coins (at least a little ways).

katastrofa
Posts: 8321
Joined: August 16th, 2007, 5:36 am
Location: Alpha Centauri

### End of bitcoin?

Now you're changing the subject.

Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

### End of bitcoin?

It's the same subject -- under what conditions can one get one's money back and whether paper money is better or worse than bitcoin with respect to refundability.Some purchases are non-refundable and it doesn't matter which currency or medium one uses.

katastrofa
Posts: 8321
Joined: August 16th, 2007, 5:36 am
Location: Alpha Centauri

### End of bitcoin?

Come on, there is a difference between "I loaned money to 100 people and now have to trace them to get it back" and "I wanted to pay $0.02 to one guy and ended up giving$100 to several hundred". No matter how you spin it, these are two different categories of fuck-ups.

Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

### End of bitcoin?

QuoteOriginally posted by: katastrofaCome on, there is a difference between "I loaned money to 100 people and now have to trace them to get it back" and "I wanted to pay $0.02 to one guy and ended up giving$100 to several hundred". No matter how you spin it, these are two different categories of fuck-ups.No, there's only one mistake here -- entering the wrong amount into a nonrefundable transaction.That the money can't be recovered because it's already been passed on is not the fault of bitcoin. That the use of bitcoin makes the money slightly more traceable than an analogous paper currency transaction shows that bitcoin is slightly superior to paper money. We can have a separate discussion about whether both bitcoin and paper money are flawed or should be outlawed, but to say that bitcoin is uniquely flawed is simply wrong.

katastrofa
Posts: 8321
Joined: August 16th, 2007, 5:36 am
Location: Alpha Centauri

### End of bitcoin?

"No, there's only one mistake here -- entering the wrong amount into a nonrefundable transaction."That's a very disingenuous way to describe what happened.Well, I hope you'll get your money back from MtGox, T4A!

Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

### End of bitcoin?

Thank you for the kind wishes, katastrofa. I was never a user of Mt Gox, bitcoin, nor any other cryptocurrency. I tend to agree with Alan's assessment of the limited attractiveness of these currencies for legitimate commerce. I may be of libertarian leanings, but I also see the need for some dynamic regulation of the money supply and of money suppliers. Although bitcoin avoids the perils of the printing press, it will probably be a more volatile currency than all but the most mis-managed fiat currencies.

daveangel
Posts: 17031
Joined: October 20th, 2003, 4:05 pm

### End of bitcoin?

Is this the face of Bitcoin ?
knowledge comes, wisdom lingers

Alan
Topic Author
Posts: 9821
Joined: December 19th, 2001, 4:01 am
Location: California
Contact:

### End of bitcoin?

QuoteOriginally posted by: daveangelIs this the face of Bitcoin ?Fascinating story -- good detective work by the reporters, and they make a strong case that it's him.The guy really needs a financial planner -- if he hasn't cashed out even partly, he should certainly do so now.Unfortunately, the press will probably bug him continuously from now on, so he needs to move to a nicesecure estate. Also, sadly, for safety -- given the relatively large criminal element in the bitcoin universe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------This link is interesting, both as a historical document from the true Satoshi N., but also because he/she/theychose to update it today after many years of inactivity to deny the Newsweek claim. I'll go with Newsweek for now. A month from now, it should be pretty resolved given the persistence of the press. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Meeting Satoshi
Last edited by Alan on March 6th, 2014, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

farmer
Posts: 13462
Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

### End of bitcoin?

Note that this innovation happened in California, not Japan. And it was in no way stimulated by Quantitative Easing.