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ppauper
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India, a dream becoming reality

January 13th, 2006, 1:29 pm

Quote10 million female babies aborted in indiaQuoteIndia's 'girl deficit' not poverty problem Study finds selective-sex abortions surprisingly high among educated mothers India's 'girl deficit' deepest among educatedBanned by Indian law for more than a decade, the practice of prenatal selection and selective abortion remains a common practice in India, claiming up to half a million female children each year, according to a recent study by the British medical journal, The Lancet. The use of ultrasound equipment to determine the sex of an unborn child - introduced to India in 1979 - has now spread to every district in the country. The study found it played a crucial role in thetermination of an estimated 10 million female fetuses in the two decades leading up to 1998, and 5 million since 1994, the year the practice was banned. Few doctors in regular clinics offer the service openly, but activists estimate that sex-selection is a $100 million business in India, largely through mobile sex-selection clinics that can drive into almost any village or neighborhood.The practice is common among all religious groups - Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Muslims, and Christians - but appears to be most common among educated women, a fact that befuddles public health officials and women's rights activists alike."More educated women have more access to technology, they are more privileged, and most educated families have the least number of children," says Sabu George, a researcher with the Center for Women's Development Studies in New Delhi, who did not participate in the study. "This is not just India. Everywhere in the world, smaller families come at the expense of girls."Like China, India has encouraged smaller families through a mixture of financial incentives and campaigns calling for two children at most. Faced with such pressure, many families, rich and poor alike, are turning to prenatal selection to ensure that they receive a son. It's a problem with many potential causes - from social traditions to the economic burden of dowries - but one that could have strong social repercussions for generations to come.The Lancet survey, conducted by Prabhat Jha of St. Michael's Hospital at the University of Toronto and Rajesh Kumar of the Postgraduate Institute of Medical Research in Chandigarh, India, looked at government data collected from a 1998 sample of Indian families in all the districts of the country. From this data, they concluded that 1 out of every 25 female fetuses is aborted, roughly 500,000 per year.Many doctors, including the Indian Medical Association, dispute the findings of the report, saying that the number of female feticides is closer to 250,000 per year. They note that the data sample used by The Lancet study precedes a 2001 Supreme Court decision outlawing the use of ultrasounds to check for girls. But activists note that the law is largely unenforced."If there were half a million feticides a year," S.C. Gulati of the Delhi Institute of Economic Growth told the Indian news channel IBN, "the sex ratio would have been very skewed indeed."Yet the sex ratio is skewed. According to the official Indian Census of 2001, there were 927 girl babies for every 1,000 boy babies, nationwide. The problem is worst in the northwestern states of Haryana, Punjab, Delhi, and Gujarat, where the ratio is less than 900 girls for every 1,000 boys.Against common expectations, female feticide is not a crime of India's backward masses. Instead, it is most common among India's elite, who can afford multiple trips to an ultrasound clinic, and the hushed-up abortion of an unwanted girl. In the prosperous farming district of Kurukshetra, for instance, there are only 770 girl babies for every 1,000 boys. In the high-rent Southwest neighborhoods of New Delhi, the number of girl babies is 845 per 1,000 boys.Some activists say it is wrong to blame Indian society for the incidents of female feticide. The main cause for the "girl deficit," they say, is the arrival of ultrasound technology, and the entrepreneurial spirit of Indian doctors."This is not a cultural thing," says Donna Fernandez, director of Vimochana, a women's rights group based in Bangalore. "This is much more of an economic and political issue. It has got a lot to do with the globalization of technology. It's about the commodification of choices."Cultures don't change overnight, of course, so it's no wonder that activists are focusing attention on regulating the technology that makes feticide possible, the ultrasound. By law, the government can regulate - but not deny - the use of prenatal diagnostic techniques for the purposes of detecting birth defects, but not gender itself. Activists say that while most doctor's offices and clinics have signboards saying that they cannot disclose the gender of a child, it is rare to see a doctor prosecuted if he does so.Karuna Bishnoi, spokeswoman for UNICEF in Delhi, says it shouldn't come as a surprise that educated women are among the most likely to use prenatal sex determination."I personally believe this as a failure of society, not a failure of women," says Ms. Bishnoi. "Women who choose this technique may be victims of discrimination themselves, and they may not be the decisionmakers. Nobody can deny that the status of women is very low in India. There is no quick fix to this."The cultural practice of giving a dowry to the groom's family puts a tremendous financial burden on a bride's family. The cost of not paying a larger dowry can be even higher. In the high-tech city of Bangalore, activists report that it is still common for women to be burned alive by husbands who expected a larger dowry. INDIA'S GIRL DEFICIT A recent study compared the girl-to-boy birth ratios of children born to married Indian women. When it comes to having a second child, a family is somewhat more likely to have a girl if they already have a boy. But second or third children were significantly more likely to be boys if the family did not already have a boy child.SOURCE: THE LANCET; RICH CLABAUGH - STAFF While most of India's religions condemn discrimination against women, there are a few temples in the state of Punjab that promise to help bring fewer women into existence. At the Bir Baba Mandir in Amritsar, couples eat flatbread and onions to ensure a boy child.As a researcher for 20 years on female feticide, conducting field research in the highly educated state of Tamil Nadu, Sabu George says he has some qualms about The Lancet study. In particular, he feels that taking the figures from one year and projecting them backward 20 years just doesn't square with the facts on the ground.But while he believes The Lancet study may have exaggerated the number of female abortions in the past 20 years, it also might underestimate the exponential growth of female feticide into the futures."This is a much larger problem in the future," he says. "Without strong pressure by civil society groups, we'll be seeing 1 million female feticides every year within five years time, definitely."QuoteINDIA'S GIRL DEFICIT A recent study compared the girl-to-boy birth ratios of children born to married Indian women. When it comes to having a second child, a family is somewhat more likely to have a girl if they already have a boy. But second or third children were significantly more likely to be boys if the family did not already have a boy child.SOURCE: THE LANCET; RICH CLABAUGH - STAFF
 
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Greenspoon
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India, a dream becoming reality

January 13th, 2006, 3:23 pm

ppauper, Thanks for this all hot air.....remember the pungent smelling gas that you bulk produce up-north of border from States!!.
 
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zeta
Posts: 1952
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India, a dream becoming reality

January 13th, 2006, 4:22 pm

Oh I don't know Greenspoon; ppauper does his research and is certainly better than that stupid b**tard Ask Jeeves
 
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ppauper
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India, a dream becoming reality

January 13th, 2006, 8:53 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Greenspoonremember the pungent smelling gas that you bulk produce up-north of border from States!!.sour natural gas ? I've made a lot of money on that of late
 
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ppauper
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India, a dream becoming reality

January 13th, 2006, 8:55 pm

QuoteQuote10 million female babies aborted in india judging by the response, I take it this story is the elephant in the room ?
 
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cosmologist
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India, a dream becoming reality

January 14th, 2006, 4:16 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: playerI'm going to India and want to set up an account while I'm there....I dont care about forex risk just want an account which I can use...I'm British..By non -resident Indian what exactly do you mean..Born in india or does being of indian decent qualify you??I can offer you a job here as long as you stay. You can open an account. salary account. Then you can hang around for some-time. Bring in some money or ask your guys to transfer that money(wire it). While you are roaming around here , the account stays. If you are living the country, you are supposed to close that account. You just cann't land up as a guest and open an acoount. You are supposed to bring in some FOREX OR you are supposed to use our money as a GUEST.You can use one of our accounts provided you give us on writing that you used it for your money transfer. The b*****ds here have fucked the system to such an extent that Gov is taking note of a 50,000 rs($1000 equivalently) transaction. Lot of black money and a lot of corrupted assholes. 9 out of 10 government guys are corrupt. 8 out of 10 pvt businesses are corrupt. You are a british guy. We don't like british,americans,europeans,russians,chinese,japanese,lebanese, all the middle -east people ,and most other people. We like jews and red-indians. BUT, we like your money. It has a good color and better taste.I am wondering what takes you there. I think you are british and indian by birth. As long as you don't qualify as a citizen here,you cann't open an account. Yes, do a job and have a salary account.I know a guy who works for a broking firm but goes to London once in a year to claim some benefits. I am aghast at his shamelessness. He was born there when his father was working as a coolie in some dark colonies of the queen, I think. Hey can someone check that for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. What is the rule for claiming the benefits?You are welcome,anyways.cheers
Last edited by cosmologist on January 13th, 2006, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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cosmologist
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India, a dream becoming reality

January 14th, 2006, 5:12 am

I wrote something about the killing of girl-child in India. If someone is interested, please pm me. I am a little worried to put the stuff here as of now. I am afraid of being sued.cheers Pedro- This obsession of yours with Luxembourg is a little too much. Anyways, can you tell me how to get a job there. may be I can go and have an experience, first-hand.
Last edited by cosmologist on January 13th, 2006, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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ppauper
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India, a dream becoming reality

January 14th, 2006, 1:23 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: cosmologistI wrote something about the killing of girl-child in India. If someone is interested, please pm me. I am a little worried to put the stuff here as of now. I am afraid of being suedI'm glad someone here cares about the issue.
 
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NamelessWonder
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Joined: June 27th, 2005, 7:31 pm

India, a dream becoming reality

January 14th, 2006, 5:51 pm

ppauper, you have probably quoted the entire internet on wilmott in your long and illustrious stay. Dont get me wrong, there is some useful stuff there. However your own opinion is curiously absent in this quotathon. Now that would be interesting to hear.
 
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ppauper
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India, a dream becoming reality

January 15th, 2006, 5:20 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: NamelessWonderHowever your own opinion is curiously absent let me help you out here.I don't think killing 10 million babies just because they're female is a good thing
 
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cosmologist
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India, a dream becoming reality

January 17th, 2006, 5:13 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ppauperQuoteOriginally posted by: NamelessWonderHowever your own opinion is curiously absent let me help you out here.I don't think killing 10 million babies just because they're female is a good thingGreenspoon is Indian.(His profile). Namelesswonder,I am not sure. But then Indians out here on WILMOTT should BEHAVE like WORLD citizens.The beauty of this forum is that we expect everyone here to be intelligent,impartial,accurate,and incisive. Opinions should fly,not accusations. Where is the big deal in hanging your head in shame for 30 seconds,Mr. Greenspoon? 10 million lives and on top of that unarmed,innocent babies. BLOODY BARBARIANS, aren't they the most despicable human beings(those who killed the babies),baring a soft thought for the poorest of the poors who killed to avoid dowry(in India,the girl's family forks out money as dowry to be given to the groom so that the groom can feed himself well to fuck the girl and if necessary beat her. dowry can go up to millions of rupees/dollars. MITTAL might have given ten millions to his son-in-law ,may be I am guessing). Where is the point in being ridiculed by the world while trying to hide something which everybody knows. Greed,jealousy are two prime factors that have driven most of the Indians. Is there anyone who can dare to prove me wrong. The most corrupted nation,India,may be China is the first. Then India. But,both are like brothers. Everybody knows this. Where is the point in trying to deny it?Cheers
 
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NamelessWonder
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India, a dream becoming reality

January 17th, 2006, 7:56 pm

Cosmologist, I am sure you think you are being objective and honest. Good for you. Knock yourself out.The thread started out with an opinion that India has a good economic future. Some discussion on the causes followed. All fine. Some sidetracking of the issue happens. Then ppauper brings in this female foeticide issue. Everybody here will agree that its a bad thing. There is no argument nor denial. But i dont really see how it is the most important point for this discussion. Many people here seem to want to get into a discussion about which is the best country/race and each one will come out with his/her own metric for measuring this supposed superiority. Is this really worthwhile? Every nation/race has its +/- points. India is not exception. Her "crimes" may seem too egregious by today's standards. But not all her citizens are "bad" (or "good"). If you like to slot things into convenient categories, I fear you are seeing things in black and white.And if you do come to the conclusion that India/Iraq/<your favourite target here> is all "bad" what do you propose? Destroy the country for the greater "good" of the world?So my point is that such arguments will not go anywhere. And perhaps Greenspoon's moniker of "hot air" may actually fit. A more interesting and extremely difficult question is how does one solve such social problems? I dont necessarily have answers, but surely this makes for a more intellectually challenging discussion.cheers
Last edited by NamelessWonder on January 16th, 2006, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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zeta
Posts: 1952
Joined: September 27th, 2005, 3:25 pm

India, a dream becoming reality

January 17th, 2006, 8:03 pm

why do people keep on saying cheers. is it a sarcastic cheers? are you in a bar? I just don't get it. I'm all for hearing some solutions to social problems NW, but unless people are willing to act on it,what's the point? Actions speak louder than words. Who is willing to act? ED: who is able to act?
Last edited by zeta on January 16th, 2006, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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NamelessWonder
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India, a dream becoming reality

January 17th, 2006, 8:40 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: zetawhy do people keep on saying cheers. is it a sarcastic cheers? are you in a bar? I just don't get it. I'm all for hearing some solutions to social problems NW, but unless people are willing to act on it,what's the point? Actions speak louder than words. Who is willing to act? ED: who is able to act?Sure, all discussion on online fora is usually nothing but intellectual masturbation. But then that is the purpose of the off-topic forum. I am sure you are not naive enough to believe that you can change the world by discussing it on the wilmott off-topic forum.Saying cheers is just a mannerism for me. If you are offended by it thats too bad. cheers!
 
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zeta
Posts: 1952
Joined: September 27th, 2005, 3:25 pm

India, a dream becoming reality

January 17th, 2006, 8:48 pm

you couldn't possibly offend me, I'm several lines of ascii text on a screen
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