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trackstar
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Impending Ice Age - What We Can Do (Mitigation)

October 19th, 2009, 7:38 pm

ppauper: here is something you can do (mitigation)US Chamber: Press Event On Climate A Fraud - WSJ Oct 19*Really!*"WASHINGTON (Dow Jones)--The U.S. Chamber of Commerce said it was the victim of fraud Monday after a group claiming to represent the organization said the Chamber had switched its position on climate change. A Chamber of Commerce spokesman said he broke up a group holding a fake press briefing at the National Press Club stating that the Chamber now supports the science of climate change and stringent legislation to curb greenhouse gas emissions. He said the group used a chamber emblem at the briefing. The spokesman said the Chamber hasn't questioned the science of climate change but rather some of the policies that Democratic leaders are pursuing to cut greenhouse gases. The Chamber is investigating those responsible for the event. An individual who called Dow Jones Newswires and said he represented "the Yes Men" claimed responsibility. The hoax follows several prominent businesses leaving the Chamber in recent weeks, saying the organization doesn't represent their views on climate legislation. Environmental groups have highlighted the departures in a press campaign as part of an effort to pressure the Chamber to change its opposition to climate legislation under consideration in Congress. The fraudulent meeting was reported as news by several news organizations, including Reuters, CNBC and Fox Business. The National Press Club, CNBC and Fox Business wouldn't immediately comment. Reuters later issued a correction on the story. Fox Business is a unit of News Corp. (NWS, NWSA), which owns Dow Jones & Company, publisher of this newswire. The group, whose fraudulent Web site was registered under "Support and Commitment, Inc.," is believed to be behind other hoaxes."from another article, ..."Andy Bichlbaum of the Yes Men said in a phone interview with MarketWatch that the group sent out the hoax statement to call attention to the chamber's position on climate-change legislation. That stand has prompted at least four major U.S. corporations to scrap their membership in the group, including Apple Inc. /quotes/comstock/15*!aapl/quotes/nls/aapl (AAPL 200.82, +10.96, +5.77%) , Exelon Corp. /quotes/comstock/13*!exc/quotes/nls/exc (EXC 50.78, -0.10, -0.20%) , Pacific Gas & Electric Co. /quotes/comstock/13*!pcg/quotes/nls/pcg (PCG 42.84, -0.21, -0.48%) and PNM Resources Inc. /quotes/comstock/13*!pnm/quotes/nls/pnm (PNM 12.45, -0.07, -0.52%) See full story. The Yes Men have pulled off several pranks over the years on Dow Chemical Co., George W. Bush, the New York Times and others. Bichlbaum said the Yes Men may draw legal action from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce for appropriating its logo in the bogus release, and added that "we would welcome it, because it would bring even more attention to the issue.""Climate statement from U.S. Chamber of Commerce a hoax - WSJ Market Watch Oct 19
 
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ppauper
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Impending Ice Age - What We Can Do (Mitigation)

October 20th, 2009, 8:21 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: trackstarppauper: here is something you can do (mitigation)]this seems to be a story about one group of people (the yes men) lying about the position of the chamber of commerce
 
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Polter
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October 20th, 2009, 5:52 pm

"Despite the hoopla, the U.N. climate change conference in Copenhagen is destined to fail. Here's what will happen instead: Over the next several decades, world leaders will embrace tougher emissions standards than those proposed-and mostly ignored-in the 1997 Kyoto Protocol. But real support for tougher regulations will fall. By midcentury, the mandatory emissions standards in place will be well below those set at Kyoto, a far cry from the targets for carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases set to be discussed by world leaders in Copenhagen. And by the time 2100 rolls around, the political will for tougher regulations will have dried up almost completely. The reasons are many, but come down to this: Today's emerging powerhouses like Brazil, India, and China simply won't stand for serious curbs on their emissions, and the pro-regulation crowd in the United States and Europe won't be strong enough to force their hands."Copenhagen Is a Recipe for Failure, FP Nov. / Dec. 2009
 
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quantmeh
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October 20th, 2009, 6:59 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Polterpro-regulation crowd in the United States and Europe won't be strong enough to force their hands."if right wing becomes pro-regulation, then it'll change everything. they'll bomb non-compliant countries to stone age
 
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Polter
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October 20th, 2009, 7:14 pm

jawabean, this might be a bit of an exaggeration ;-) still, in a way, it's also addressed in the article:"There is a natural division between the rich countries whose prosperity does not depend so much on toasting our planet and the poor countries that really have no affordable alternative (yet) to fossil fuels and carbon emissions. They have an incentive to do whatever it takes to improve the quality of life of the people they govern. The rich have an incentive to encourage the fast-growing poor to be greener, but the fast-growing poor have little incentive to listen as long as they are still poor. As the Indian government is fond of noting, sure, India is growing rapidly in income and in carbon dioxide emissions, but it is still a pale shadow of what rich countries like the United States have emitted over the centuries when going from poor to rich.But when the fast-growing poor surpass the rich, the tables will turn. China, India, Brazil, and Mexico will then cry out for environmental change because that will protect their future advantaged position, while the relatively poor of one or two or three hundred years from now will resist policies that hinder their efforts to climb to the top. The rich will even fight wars to keep the rising poor from getting so rich that they threaten the old political order. (The rising poor will win those wars, by the way.)"Don't necessarily share the conclusion, found it interesting nevertheless.
 
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quantmeh
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October 20th, 2009, 7:21 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: PolterDon't necessarily share the conclusion, found it interesting nevertheless.i'm afraid the conclusion could turn out to be true, but in a different way. the poor wont win in a sense that they become rich, and rich become poor. they'll win, and everybody will be poor
 
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Polter
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October 20th, 2009, 7:35 pm

jawabean, not much of a victory, then :-
 
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quantmeh
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October 20th, 2009, 7:40 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Polterjawabean, not much of a victory, then :-i think that there's to many people on Earth for justice. there's no way to survive as species if we keep trying to be fair to each other. hence the new qorld order will be re-installment of unfairness
 
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mathematocrat
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October 20th, 2009, 10:13 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: jawabeani think that there's to many people on Earth for justice. there's no way to survive as species if we keep trying to be fair to each other. hence the new qorld order will be re-installment of unfairnessForgive this little rant, but what makes you think we're going to survive as a species, or that we even should? Isn't it rather obvious that this rapacious species of primates called homo sapiens is starting to run up against some hard limits on this planet? The important thing is not that homo sapiens survives, but that sapience survives in some form, hopefully a more advanced and less physically constrained one. I think of this as the modern version of the Copernican revolution applied to intelligent life -- the idea that humans aren't the center or endpoint of the intellectual universe, just the latest apex species in a billion year-long evolutionary struggle. And like all previous apex species, our time at the top is limited. Interestingly, the next apex species may be of our own creation, if you believe the claims of Transhumanists and Singularity advocates. Whether the new bosses treat us like we've treated the lower life forms on this planet is an open question, but if history is any guide, I fully expect to be terminated.
Last edited by mathematocrat on October 20th, 2009, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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trackstar
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October 20th, 2009, 10:18 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: mathematocratQuoteOriginally posted by: jawabeani think that there's to many people on Earth for justice. there's no way to survive as species if we keep trying to be fair to each other. hence the new qorld order will be re-installment of unfairnessForgive this little rant, but what makes you think we're going to survive as a species, or that we even should? Isn't it rather obvious that this rapacious species of primates called homo sapiens is starting to run up against some hard limits on this planet? The important thing is not that homo sapiens survives, but that intelligence survives in some form, hopefully a more advanced and less physically constrained one. I think of this as the modern version of the Copernican revolution applied to intelligent life -- the idea that homo sapiens aren't the center or endpoint of the intellectual universe, just the latest apex species in a billion year-long evolutionary struggle. And like all previous apex species, our time at the top is limited. Interestingly, the next apex species may be of our own creation, if you believe the claims of Transhumanists and Singularity advocates. Whether the new bosses treat us like we've treated the lower life forms on this planet is an open question, but if history is any guide, I fully expect to be terminated. Some of us are going to build nuclear fusion space ships and will go to visit some of the other 32 planets that were just discovered.You may come along if you like. Do you have (or are you willing to develop) any skills that would be useful on board?
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mathematocrat
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October 20th, 2009, 10:28 pm

That's a nice idea, but good luck rocketing your monkey ass across the galaxy in a nuclear powered tin can. Now if your intelligence could be abstracted onto a different substrate, space travel could become a matter of beaming yourself at the speed of light via electromagnetic waves. Personally I don't think space colonization is in the cards for our species, but I'd love to be wrong. It sure looks fun in the movies!
 
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October 20th, 2009, 10:34 pm

Diplomacy skills? Negative, sir.Realistic engineering concept? Negative.Willingness to compromise or collaborate?Negative.Well *Neutralize* him, then!Yes, *Sir*!***Marvin the Martian
Last edited by trackstar on October 20th, 2009, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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October 21st, 2009, 7:17 pm

Back on topic:Super Freaking Wrong - Guardian Oct 21"Superfreakonomics is a super freaking mess. US publisher Harper Collins promotes the sequel to the pop-economics bestseller Freakonomics, authored by economist Steven Levitt and journalist Stephen Dubner, as "bigger, more provocative, and sure to challenge the way we think all over again". Too often, however, the book provokes by just getting things wrong – including matters involving life and death.Levitt and Dubner begin by arguing that if you're intoxicated, "driving is safer than walking" – based not on actual research but on "shoddy statistical work". The authors boast about their time spent interviewing a $500-an-hour call girl, describing her as "essentially a trophy wife who is rented by the hour", while getting the economics and history of prostitution wrong. But the most serious concerns are raised by their treatment of climate change.Superfreakonomics promotes a contrarian view of climate change, calling global warming a "religion" and lionising Microsoft billionaire and scientific dilettante Nathan Myhrvold. Myhrvold unscientifically pooh-poohs solar power and promotes the "cheap and simple" solution to global warming of pumping sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere to blot out the sun. But this Bond-villain fantasy solution cannot come to pass, the Superfreaks bemoan, because the "people like Al Gore" think "it's nuts"."...***They should have subcontracted some of that research to us.
 
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mathematocrat
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October 23rd, 2009, 4:50 am

Heheh pumping sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere to blot out the sun, what could possibly go wrong? I think this idea was first proposed by a protege of Edward "Dr. Strangelove" Teller. I agree it sounds nuts, but if we're going to be a successful global species we're probably going to have to implement global controls on the environment (and population, industrial activity etc) sooner rather than later, and that includes the weather, sunlight etc. At the very least it's a nice emergency option to have if the runaway greenhouse effect kicks in. Solar power is the obvious solution to most of this though, I'm not sure why anyone would be anti-solar.Of course there's no reason to think that primates adapted to life in hunter-gatherer tribes are going to be a successful global species, and there's a strong possibility that we're heading back to the Olduvai Gorge where we came from rather than finding ways to solve the problems of global industrial civilization. I see it as a race against time, depleting resource curves and socioeconomic disintegration vs. Moore's Law and Transhumanist engineering, but it could just be that I spend too much time on crazy internet forums and need to get out more.
 
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Avtogner
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October 23rd, 2009, 6:05 am

What "crazy internet forums" are you talking about?QuoteOriginally posted by: mathematocratHeheh pumping sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere to blot out the sun, what could possibly go wrong? I think this idea was first proposed by a protege of Edward "Dr. Strangelove" Teller. I agree it sounds nuts, but if we're going to be a successful global species we're probably going to have to implement global controls on the environment (and population, industrial activity etc) sooner rather than later, and that includes the weather, sunlight etc. At the very least it's a nice emergency option to have if the runaway greenhouse effect kicks in. Solar power is the obvious solution to most of this though, I'm not sure why anyone would be anti-solar.Of course there's no reason to think that primates adapted to life in hunter-gatherer tribes are going to be a successful global species, and there's a strong possibility that we're heading back to the Olduvai Gorge where we came from rather than finding ways to solve the problems of global industrial civilization. I see it as a race against time, depleting resource curves and socioeconomic disintegration vs. Moore's Law and Transhumanist engineering, but it could just be that I spend too much time on crazy internet forums and need to get out more.
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