Serving the Quantitative Finance Community

 
User avatar
zeta
Posts: 1973
Joined: September 27th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Location: Houston, TX
Contact:

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 6:20 pm

the hijackers weren't spouting platitudes about the west and how dreadful they thought it was, as the plane dove into a Pennsylvania field. It was "Allah is great..." worst sound bite you'll ever hear
 
User avatar
Hamilton
Posts: 5976
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 6:25 pm

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 6:24 pm

his is the problem with legalistic religionSpeaking of legalistic, could someone address what happens when someone "leaves" the Muslim religion?
 
User avatar
Hamilton
Posts: 5976
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 6:25 pm

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 6:27 pm

Sorry. I forgot honor killings.
 
User avatar
zeta
Posts: 1973
Joined: September 27th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Location: Houston, TX
Contact:

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 6:32 pm

I see were you're going, I don't disagree. But then since my cards are obviously on the table, I would counter with is there no concept of grace or forgiveness? Any parallel with the Christian tennant "for you are not under law, but under grace"? It's an honest question, I'm keen to learn
 
User avatar
Hamilton
Posts: 5976
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 6:25 pm

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 7:19 pm

would counter with is there no concept of grace or forgivenessI'm asking a very simple question(s). Why do some Muslims have more than one wife? Why do some participate in honor killings? And, the big one, why are 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims in Western countries more radical, as a group, than their parents were?Surely, someone can proffer a reasonable explanation for these phenomenon.
 
User avatar
gardener3
Posts: 1496
Joined: April 5th, 2004, 3:25 pm

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 7:42 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: zetaa blanket of condemnation meaning broad brushstokes, Hamilton. I've tried to address why specific judgements against legalistic muslims are valid. Perhaps I could illustrate via commenting on Marsden:QuoteNo, actually, suicide tactics are in reality more honorable than most violence that goes on. I know that recent events have fucked up a lot of people's ability to reason, but this is simple logic: the suicide attacker essentially says, "The situation is so intolerable that I am willing to sacrifice my life in order to change it;" most violence only indicates a willingness to sacrifice other people's lives in order to change a situation. If there were any possibility that the cost of America's invasion of Iraq were 650,000 American lives, we never would have come within a thousand miles of the place. And yet we were perfectly willing to risk -- and realize -- that many Iraqi deaths.As an atheist I don't think you're in a position to make that assessment Marsden; as someone who is religious my interpretation is that a person wouldn't even cotemplate suicide if a) they didn't think they would be rewarded b) sins against the infidel could be forgiven with impunity. This is the problem with legalistic religion or self righteousness; it's earned and sins against those who aren't 'righteous' are dismissed. Contrast with Paul "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"I agree. If these guys went ahead truly believing that they would burn in hell for eternity, then what they did would be a courageous (but obviously immoral) action. But I don't think that was the case. Not related to this, I was reading 'razor's edge', and a character in the book was arguing that self sacrifice is actually very selfish. The only thing that god can not do is sacrifice himself. He sacrificed his only son for the sins of mankind according to the christian tradition. So, in a way by sacrificing himself, a person can rise above God, in doing something god cannot do, which might be a very selfish motivation.
 
User avatar
Cuchulainn
Posts: 64962
Joined: July 16th, 2004, 7:38 am
Location: Drosophila melanogaster
Contact:

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 8:06 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: HamiltonAnd, the big one, why are 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims in Western countries more radical, as a group, than their parents were?Hamilton,You are correct. That is the 64 miliion dollar question. QuoteSurely, someone can proffer a reasonable explanation for these phenomenon. One needs to draw analogies from history.
Last edited by Cuchulainn on October 26th, 2006, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Compatibility means deliberately repeating other people's mistakes."
David Wheeler

http://www.datasimfinancial.com
http://www.datasim.nl
 
User avatar
Marsden
Posts: 3829
Joined: August 20th, 2001, 5:42 pm

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 11:04 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: TraderJoeQuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenQuoteOriginally posted by: TraderJoeYes, there are two sides to every story marsden, but I like the way you neatly skirt around the issues of suicide bombers killing thousands of innocent Westerners, eh ?I don't skirt anything, dumbass. I'm just less inclined than certain assholes to concentrate my attentions on the sins of others as opposed to the sins of my own people. Dwelling on the sins of others is a cowardly cop-out, in my eyes: it's basically attempting to absolve yourself of responsibility for the things that you do control.So address the issue boy. Own it.For your sake? Hardly.
 
User avatar
Marsden
Posts: 3829
Joined: August 20th, 2001, 5:42 pm

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 11:07 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: HamiltonQuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenQuoteOriginally posted by: Hamiltonwelling on the sins of others is a cowardly cop-outFollowing that logic, neurotic countries that blame the US for their problems, instead of themselves, are making a cowardly cop-out.Exactly. Do you disagree with this sentiment?Well, being a philosopher, I don't use the words "sin", "original sin", or "sentiment" in a philosophic argument, so allow me to rephrase your assertion, to see if you are talking about the same things:You said, I think:"(All) individuals who focus on the harmful effects of the actions of (other) individuals are copping out of ....<something>"Is that what you said?There is a fine line between pedantry and pissantry, and you've crossed it.Do you agree with your own statement or not?
 
User avatar
Marsden
Posts: 3829
Joined: August 20th, 2001, 5:42 pm

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 11:10 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: menceyQuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenNo, actually, suicide tactics are in reality more honorable than most violence that goes on. I do not agree with that. That's simply making apology of terrorism. In some countries you may go to jail just for that sentence.No, it is not making "apology of terrorism." Perhaps if you tried to forget for a moment that you ever heard the word "terrorism" and that it has been repeatedly drilled into your head that it is bad, bad, bad, you can think clearly for a moment about the simple meaning of my statement and see if you agree with it or not.
 
User avatar
Marsden
Posts: 3829
Joined: August 20th, 2001, 5:42 pm

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 11:14 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: menceyIt goes down to a very simple sentence, "rule of engagement". If one part does not respect the rules of engagement can not blame the other one for not complying wiht those rules either.Who devised the "rule of engagement?" If I declared that the rules of our conversation are that I will make assertions and arguments, and that I will decide which of them you have to agree with and which you can make your own comments on, would you respect those rules?QuoteIf a society has fail to develop itself for wahtever reason, then it should bear the consecuences instead of making the whole world pay for it.And if a society has failed to have sufficient oil resources for its consumption, then what?
 
User avatar
Marsden
Posts: 3829
Joined: August 20th, 2001, 5:42 pm

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 11:16 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: menceyAnd by the way, by your post, you do not have a clue what decency meansAnd by your post, you're an evil little troll, whether you realize it or not.
 
User avatar
Hamilton
Posts: 5976
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 6:25 pm

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 11:21 pm

QuoteThere is a fine line between pedantry and pissantry, and you've crossed it.Do you agree with your own statement or not? Well, considering my statement was:"Following that logic,..."would be rephrased as:"If you accept that logic."Its pretty clearly a hypothetical syllogism. But, I forgot, you're the atheist who speaks of original sin, sins of others, etcetera, etcetera.So, sorry you aren't up to snuff on the philosophical argument structure.You can go back to regularly scheduled denunciations now.
 
User avatar
TraderJoe
Posts: 11048
Joined: February 1st, 2005, 11:21 pm

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 11:29 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3QuoteOriginally posted by: zetaa blanket of condemnation meaning broad brushstokes, Hamilton. I've tried to address why specific judgements against legalistic muslims are valid. Perhaps I could illustrate via commenting on Marsden:QuoteNo, actually, suicide tactics are in reality more honorable than most violence that goes on. I know that recent events have fucked up a lot of people's ability to reason, but this is simple logic: the suicide attacker essentially says, "The situation is so intolerable that I am willing to sacrifice my life in order to change it;" most violence only indicates a willingness to sacrifice other people's lives in order to change a situation. If there were any possibility that the cost of America's invasion of Iraq were 650,000 American lives, we never would have come within a thousand miles of the place. And yet we were perfectly willing to risk -- and realize -- that many Iraqi deaths.As an atheist I don't think you're in a position to make that assessment Marsden; as someone who is religious my interpretation is that a person wouldn't even cotemplate suicide if a) they didn't think they would be rewarded b) sins against the infidel could be forgiven with impunity. This is the problem with legalistic religion or self righteousness; it's earned and sins against those who aren't 'righteous' are dismissed. Contrast with Paul "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"I agree. If these guys went ahead truly believing that they would burn in hell for eternity, then what they did would be a courageous (but obviously immoral) action. But I don't think that was the case. Not related to this, I was reading 'razor's edge', and a character in the book was arguing that self sacrifice is actually very selfish. The only thing that god can not do is sacrifice himself. He sacrificed his only son for the sins of mankind according to the christian tradition. So, in a way by sacrificing himself, a person can rise above God, in doing something god cannot do, which might be a very selfish motivation.I'll keep it simple for you gardener as you seem to be (pretending to be) struggling with the basics here a bit:THOU SHALL NOT MURDER. PERIOD. END OF STATEMENT. THEY WILL BURN IN HELL.
 
User avatar
TraderJoe
Posts: 11048
Joined: February 1st, 2005, 11:21 pm

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WORKED ALONGSIDE MUSLIMS?

October 27th, 2006, 11:30 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenQuoteOriginally posted by: TraderJoeQuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenQuoteOriginally posted by: TraderJoeYes, there are two sides to every story marsden, but I like the way you neatly skirt around the issues of suicide bombers killing thousands of innocent Westerners, eh ?I don't skirt anything, dumbass. I'm just less inclined than certain assholes to concentrate my attentions on the sins of others as opposed to the sins of my own people. Dwelling on the sins of others is a cowardly cop-out, in my eyes: it's basically attempting to absolve yourself of responsibility for the things that you do control.So address the issue boy. Own it.For your sake? Hardly.No, for your own.