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Marsden
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November 1st, 2006, 9:17 pm

Equally naturally, your initial feelings of anger and frustration gave way to a different sort of anxiety around boys ...
 
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mencey
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November 1st, 2006, 9:21 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenBecause the logical ability of some here is so lacking, I'm starting this thread specifically to address logical gaps as opposed to substance. When someone makes a argumentatively ridiculous comment elsewhere, I'll try to move it here rather than trying to unscrammble the nonsense in order to get at any hidden point there might be.So filtering information and then deciding what's nonsense and what is not. That's the first step towards censorship, I am proud of you Marsden
Last edited by mencey on October 31st, 2006, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Hamilton
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November 1st, 2006, 9:24 pm

You were an only child, your father was distant, and your mother was distracted. Anything you'd like to add? My father was a turkey baster, my mother was a chimpanzee and my hobby was swinging from trees.Now, getting back to the definition of "logical gaps" and "substance"...
 
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Marsden
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November 1st, 2006, 9:24 pm

What a remarkably stupid remark, mencey.
 
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Hamilton
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November 1st, 2006, 9:24 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenWhat a remarkably stupid remark, mencey.Logical gaps and substance?
 
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Marsden
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November 1st, 2006, 9:29 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: HamiltonYou were an only child, your father was distant, and your mother was distracted. Anything you'd like to add? My father was a turkey baster, my mother was a chimpanzee and my hobby was swinging from trees.Now, getting back to the definition of "logical gaps" and "substance"...So far, "everyone" is still stuck at which childhood incident steered you toward becoming such an ineffectual blowhard.
 
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Marsden
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November 1st, 2006, 9:33 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: HamiltonQuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenWhat a remarkably stupid remark, mencey.Logical gaps and substance?Yes; the presence of the former and the absence of the latter are what make mencey's comment so stupid.
 
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mencey
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November 1st, 2006, 9:41 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenOnce again, your obliqueness has failed you, Hamilton.The correct answer for why the comment from Case 1 is ridiculous is that, in the Method of Inquiry known as debate, each participant makes his argument about what the truth of a situation is, and then in turn addresses the shortcomings in the arguments of other participants with opposing viewpoints.Case 1 basically goes like this:Z: "Dhimmitude is bad because the Dhimmis had to pay taxes to the Islamic government and obey Islamic law."Y: "But I have to pay taxes to the US government and obey US law. Does that make my situation equivalent to dhimmitude and therefore bad?"X: "But Dhimmitude is bad for other reasons, and you know it!"Now, if we are trying to identify what makes dhimmitude bad (or even if it is particularly bad at all), the contribution of X is just noise. Z at least makes a proposition about what makes dhimmitude bad; Y notes that according to this proposition, living in the US is bad as well, so the proposition is probably false because it leads to absurd conclusions. X, however, makes no argument whatever, nor any criticism of any argument made; he's just braying.Hamilton, perhaps you can provide the Latin name for such nonsense. I was thinking in might include "ex argumento," given that it insists on drawing in facts outside of the argument (without, however, even presenting any such facts). It's sort of a "red herring" fallacy, but it doesn't make as clean a change in subject as "red herring" generally involves.Marsden, the original post was mine, so I am X. Dhimmiditude is bad not just because extra taxes paid by the Dhimmi but because is a discriminatory regime that creates first class and second class citizens, where the Dhimmi is highly humilliated and has to accept the superiority of any muslim under Islamic law.Therefore your statement in Y "Does that make my situation equivalent to dhimmitude" is wrong because compliance with US law is not equivalent to compliance with Islamic law. In western legal systems everybody is equal in front of the law, with independance of gender, religion, ethnic, etc... That's not the case under Islamic law.Therefore trying to reduce the whole issue to a tax question and law obedience is simply a lame try because omits the real meaning of Dhimmitude.Regading misspelling on the original post, if you are troubled by that, we can continue this discussion in Spanish. Let me know, is your call.
Last edited by mencey on October 31st, 2006, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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mencey
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November 1st, 2006, 9:52 pm

Therefore the fallacy is in comparing obedience to Islamic law with obediende to US law.
 
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Hamilton
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November 1st, 2006, 9:57 pm

So far, "everyone" is still stuck at which childhood incident steered you toward becoming such an ineffectual blowhard.Thank goodness you've stated the purpose of the thread so clearly.Anyway, until the thread title changes, I have 4 questions:(1) What is Dhimmitude?(2) What is a logical gap?(3) What is substance?(4) What is a "method of inquiry"?(5) What is historiography?Okay, 5 questions.I'll be back to check on answers on the weekend. I'm not expecting much.
 
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Marsden
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November 1st, 2006, 10:06 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: menceyTherefore trying to reduce the whole issue to a tax question and law obedience is simply a lame try because omits the real meaning of Dhimmitude.So Z made a "lame try" and you blamed Y for it. Is that about right?
 
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mencey
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November 1st, 2006, 10:13 pm

No, Y made a lame try, a fallacy because his statement implied that Dhimmitude is equal to pay taxes and obey law. And a second fallacy because compared compliance to US law to compliance to Islamic law.What Z probably did was a wrong description of the nature of Dhimmitude, if just refered to taxes and law obedience. However i am not sure if that was the case in the original post.
 
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mencey
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November 1st, 2006, 10:15 pm

However if Z statement was originally as you said then your right, I can not blame just Y for that. I have to blame Z for fallacy of comparing Dhimmitude to taxes and law compliance AND Y for fallacy comparing US law with Islamic law.What about that, makes sence to you?
Last edited by mencey on October 31st, 2006, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Marsden
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November 1st, 2006, 11:50 pm

No, it doesn't. Y was pointing out an absurd consequence of the stated rationale for Z's outrage at dhimmitude under an Islamic state. The appropriate thing for Z to have done would have been either to withdraw his expression of outrage at dhimmitude completely, or at least to acknowledge that his statement of his reasons for it was incomplete and to amend it. Or to have directed his outrage also at the US government ...The appropriate thing for you to have done would have been to give Z the opportunity to clarify or revise his statement, or perhaps to have offered your own clarification. Y only noted that Z's "blameworthy" aspects of dhimmitude were shared by the US government: do you deny that the US government requires payment of taxes and obedience to laws? If not, then you cannot reasonably complain about Y noting that the US government does do these things. If your complaint is only that these things are not what makes dhimmitude bad, then your quarrel would seem to be with Z, who made that implication; Y never made such an implication -- you can check the record.
 
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Hamilton
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November 2nd, 2006, 4:11 am

QuoteDhimmitude: the Islamic system of governing populations conquered by jihad wars, encompassing all of the demographic, ethnic, and religious aspects of the political system. The word "dhimmitude" as a historical concept, was coined by Bat Ye'or in 1983 to describe the legal and social conditions of Jews and Christians subjected to Islamic rule. The word "dhimmitude" comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning "protected". Dhimmi was the name applied by the Arab-Muslim conquerors to indigenous non-Muslim populations who surrendered by a treaty (dhimma) to Muslim domination. Islamic conquests expanded over vast territories in Africa, Europe and Asia, for over a millennium (638-1683). The Muslim empire incorporated numerous varied peoples which had their own religion, culture, language and civilization. For centuries, these indigenous, pre-Islamic peoples constituted the great majority of the population of the Islamic lands. Although these populations differed, they were ruled by the same type of laws, based on the shari'a.This similarity, which includes also regional variations, has created a uniform civilization developed throughout the centuries by all non-Muslim indigenous people, who were vanquished by a jihad-war and governed by shari'a law. It is this civilization which is called dhimmitude. It is characterized by the different strategies developed by each dhimmi group to survive as non-Muslim entity in their Islamized countries. Dhimmitude is not exclusively concerned with Muslim history and civilization. Rather it investigates the history of those non-Muslim peoples conquered and colonized by jihad.Dhimmitude encompasses the relationship of Muslims and non-Muslims at the theological, social, political and economical levels. It also incorporates the relationship between the numerous ethno-religious dhimmi groups and the type of mentality that they have developed out of their particular historical condition which lasted for centuries, even in some Muslim countries, till today.Dhimmitude is an entire integrated system, based on Islamic theology. It cannot be judged from the circumstantial position of any one community, at a given time and in a given place. Dhimmitude must be appraised according to its laws and customs, irrespectively of circumstances and political contingencies.For books by Bat Ye'or, see www.dhimmi.org
Last edited by Hamilton on November 1st, 2006, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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