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farmer
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October 16th, 2007, 5:40 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: JWDTheir bottom line is that the 9 points are not "errors" at all, and the usual climate change contrarians are exploiting this confusion. You're just a cheap-assed liar Dash. I went to your so-called refutation. I looked at the one error I am familiar with because I learned about it without having to read or listen: the CO2-temperature lead-lag chart. All they did was set up a one-line straw man - that Al Gore said there was "an exact fit" - knock it down, and then quote Al's lie:QuoteThe relationship is very complicated. But there is one relationship that is more powerful than all the others and it is this. When there is more carbon dioxide, the temperature gets warmer, because it traps more heat from the sun insideThe most powerful relationship in the chart he was referring to was the lag of temperature rise to CO2 rise. The honest line woud have been:QuoteWhen there is more carbon-dioxide, the temperature had already gotten warmer, so simplest answer is that it was probably not caused by CO2 trapping more heat from the sun. In fact, there is nothing simple you can learn from this chart other than the opposite of what I said, so I would only show it if I am a swindler.Were you this desparate 10 years ago, Dash? When did it start?
 
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JWD
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October 16th, 2007, 7:16 pm

Recent Global Warming - the CO2 lag in Ice Cores is Irrelevant The bottom line is that recent global warming over the last 30 years is caused by CO2 emissions, and the CO2 lag in ice cores is irrelevant. Here is what RealClimate, the scientifically accurate website run by climate scientists, says (in 3 separate posts - see refs):1. What does the lag of CO2 behind temperature in ice cores tell us about global warming? 3 December 2004This is an issue that is often misunderstood in the public sphere and media, so it is worth spending some time to explain it and clarify it. At least three careful ice core studies have shown that CO2 starts to rise about 800 years (600-1000 years) after Antarctic temperature during glacial terminations. These terminations are pronounced warming periods that mark the ends of the ice ages that happen every 100,000 years or so. Does this prove that CO2 doesn't cause global warming? The answer is no.The reason has to do with the fact that the warmings take about 5000 years to be complete. The lag is only 800 years. All that the lag shows is that CO2 did not cause the first 800 years of warming, out of the 5000 year trend. The other 4200 years of warming could in fact have been caused by CO2, as far as we can tell from this ice core data… 2. The lag between temperature and CO2. (Gore’s got it right.)Eric Steig27 April 2007When I give talks about climate change, the question that comes up most frequently is this: “Doesn’t the relationship between CO2 and temperature in the ice core record show that temperature drives CO2, not the other way round?"On the face of it, it sounds like a reasonable question. It is no surprise that it comes up because it is one of the most popular claims made by the global warming deniers… [n.b. A quote from the contrarian Republican congressman Joe Barton appears next].Of course, those who've been paying attention will recognize that Gore is not wrong at all. First of all, saying "historically" is misleading, because Barton is actually talking about CO2 changes on very long (glacial-interglacial) timescales. On historical timescales, CO2 has definitely led, not lagged, temperature. But in any case, it doesn't really matter for the problem at hand (global warming). We know why CO2 is increasing now, and the direct radiative effects of CO2 on climate have been known for more than 100 years. In the absence of human intervention CO2 does rise and fall over time, due to exchanges of carbon among the biosphere, atmosphere, and ocean and, on the very longest timescales, the lithosphere (i.e. rocks, oil reservoirs, coal, carbonate rocks). The rates of those exchanges are now being completely overwhelmed by the rate at which we are extracting carbon from the latter set of reservoirs and converting it to atmospheric CO2. No discovery made with ice cores is going to change those basic facts…3. CO2 and Temperature connections in the ice core record[n.b. 4th point in “Convenient Untruths”, Gavin Schmidt and Michael Mann, 15 October 2007]Gore stated that the greenhouse gas levels and temperature changes over ice age signals had a complex relationship but that they 'fit'. Again, both of these statements are true. The complexity though is actually quite fascinating and warrants being further discussed by those interested in how the carbon cycle will react in the future. We've discussed the lead/lag issue previously… A full understanding of why CO2 changes in precisely the pattern that it does during ice ages is elusive, but among the most plausible explanations is that increased received solar radiation in the southern hemisphere due to changes in Earth's orbital geometry warms the southern ocean, releasing CO2 into the atmosphere, which then leads to further warming through an enhanced greenhouse effect. Gore's terse explanation of course does not mention such complexities, but the crux of his point–that the observed long-term relationship between CO2 and temperature in Antarctica supports our understanding of the warming impact of increased CO2 concentrations–is correct. Moreover, our knowledge of why CO2 is changing now (fossil fuel burning) is solid. Refs:1. http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... -ice-cores 2. http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... p-and-co2/ 3. http://www.realclimate.org/ (Discussion of the 9 “errors”)---------
Jan Dash, PhD

Editor, World Scientific Encyclopedia of Climate Change:
https://www.worldscientific.com/page/en ... ate-change

Book:
http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/ ... 71241_0053
 
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farmer
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October 16th, 2007, 8:09 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: JWDthe CO2 lag in Ice Cores is IrrelevantI don't know whether it is relevant to the science, but I know it was relevant to the people Al Gore lied about it to swindle their money. It is certainly relevant to whether Al is a lying swindler. The more irrelvant it is, the more of a swindler. The more relevant, the more of a liar. If it is irrelevant, and he lies and says it is relevant, then lies about it, he is a lying swindler. And it is certainly relevant that he lied about it and continues to to swindle your money.
 
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ppauper
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October 17th, 2007, 12:17 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerQuoteOriginally posted by: JWDthe CO2 lag in Ice Cores is IrrelevantI don't know whether it is relevant to the science, but I know it was relevant to the people Al Gore lied about it to swindle their money. It is certainly relevant to whether Al is a lying swindler. The more irrelvant it is, the more of a swindler. The more relevant, the more of a liar. If it is irrelevant, and he lies and says it is relevant, then lies about it, he is a lying swindler. And it is certainly relevant that he lied about it and continues to to swindle your money.spot on Mr Farmer.The truth is of course irrelevant to algore, mrs dash, and the rest of the climate alarmists out there.Birds of a feather stick together: it was proven long ago on this forum that jandash is a liar (the pornography imbroglio) and it comes as no surprise to learn that algore is just as dishonest as dash.
 
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October 17th, 2007, 3:55 pm

While the right-wing contrarian propaganda machine sputters, nitpicks, attacks, and distorts climate science in general and Al Gore’s excellent movie in particular, its wheels are starting to come off. Progress in doing something about global warming is underway among some prominent US Republicans. From today’s NY Times: Global Warming Starts to Divide G.O.P. ContendersWhile many conservative commentators and editorialists have mocked concerns about climate change, a different reality is emerging among Republican presidential contenders. It is a near-unanimous recognition among the leaders of the threat posed by global warming...The debate among Republicans is largely not about whether people are warming the planet, but about how to deal with it… The issue had been gradually bubbling up among leading Republicans as top corporations, including some in petroleum, have been pushing to address it… Ref:http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/us/po ... ref=slogin ----------
Jan Dash, PhD

Editor, World Scientific Encyclopedia of Climate Change:
https://www.worldscientific.com/page/en ... ate-change

Book:
http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/ ... 71241_0053
 
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farmer
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October 17th, 2007, 4:21 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: JWDWhile the right-wing contrarian propaganda machine sputters, nitpicks, attacks, and distorts climate science in general and Al Gore’s excellent movie in particular, its wheels are starting to come off.Why do you want your neighbor's wheels to come off? If what you are doing is annoying him, why don't you have the decency to close your shutters, turn up your own AC, and mind your own business? Why this crusade to impose your silly ideas on a billion strangers?You are so evil You slap somebody with a multi-billion-dollar tab, and then you have the arrogance to insult him as nitpicking when he looks into it? I hope the wheels come off the objections of all the nitpicking little 12-year-old girls who think my car isn't good enough to get into!
 
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Collector
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October 17th, 2007, 8:59 pm

What about other fat-tail threats that we actually can do something with (if we get the money):"We know what to do," he said; "we just don't have the money""The objects in question are space rocks with a diameter greater than 460 feet (140 meters), and scientists estimate that there are 20,000 of these that could potentially collide with Earth. In 2005 Congress asked NASA to come up with a plan to track most killer asteroids, and propose how to deflect one if it is headed for a catastrophic collision. Although NASA scientists believe they could find 90% of these objects by the year 2020, funding for the search has been hard to come by."
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Alan
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October 18th, 2007, 1:00 am

Yeah, I agree. My personal list of priorities for giving money.1. Stop malaria2. This season's hurricane/earthquake/tsumani du jour 3. The bum on the corner....9. Seti10. Stop killer asteroids... ........................1,000,000,000 Stop global warming
 
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Collector
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October 18th, 2007, 2:19 am

Alan I agree with your 1 priority, but before Seti I would add a few more to your listMalaria, every year, more than 500 million people become severely ill with malaria, and itkills between 1 and 3 million per yearSchistosmiasis approximatly 150 million infected, annual deaths 500000 to 1 million.Ascaris 1.0 billion annual deaths 20000Hookworms 900 million annual deaths 50-60 thousandsFilariasis 650 million annual deaths 20-50+ thousandsThen we have Trypanosoma, Leishmania and do not forget a whole series of more parasites that makes life for people low quality. Some of them with cures others not, and also the detection and treatment abilites often limited due to lack of specialists, medicines etc. And they are not only in the tropics...watch out !Where is media? old news do not sell.....
 
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farmer
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October 18th, 2007, 2:25 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: CollectorMalaria, every year, more than 500 million people become severely ill with malaria, and itkills between 1 and 3 million per yearWhat? Nonsense. Malaria ended with DDT.
 
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Collector
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October 18th, 2007, 2:27 am

Yes they started using DDT again, so possibly/probably numbers are down recently, but DDT is no permanet solution (?) Malvina Reynolds once sang "It kills the bugs in the apple tree, I eat the pie and it's killing me. DDT on my brain, on my brain."If we not can take them all at "the same time".... well we got (almost?) rid of malaria in New Jersey... New Jersey was a swamp I think. Was it Rockefeller money that was spent on DDT and turning the New Jersey swamp into inhabitable land? (well not sure if it still is inhabitable, except possibly Princeton)but even DDT cost money, where is the money?????? can we put aside one hedge fund blow up to solve the problem or are you sponsering DDT farmer? Show me the money and I show you the DDT Do not forget also malaria mosqitos get free flight tickets these days, even to NY NY
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Cuchulainn
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October 18th, 2007, 6:11 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: AlanYeah, I agree. My personal list of priorities for giving money.1. Stop malaria2. This season's hurricane/earthquake/tsumani du jour 3. The bum on the corner....9. Seti10. Stop killer asteroids... ........................1,000,000,000 Stop global warming Alan,may I add on to you list1,000,000,001 Free Paris Hilton
 
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rmax
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October 18th, 2007, 10:35 am

My list:1. Stop Global Warming2. Free paris Hilton3. Ensure Britney gets custody of her children4. Give Posh something to eat5. Pour billions into Northern Rock to keep it afloat.....1,000,0000 Educate people on Aids1,000,0001 Stop Malaria1,000,0002 Research TB1,000,0003 Stop killer asteroids
 
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farmer
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October 18th, 2007, 10:50 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: Alan3. The bum on the cornerDo you know the guy? There are plenty of people who have gotten to know him over the course of his life, and they all want NOTHING to do with that evil arrogant asshole. All bums had a mother, a brother, a cousin, a boss, a friend, a landlord, a probation officer, an AA group, a pastor at some point. There are certainly people who tried much harder to do much more for him than you ever have, and they all got burned. Most people can be decent human beings 24 hours out of the typical day. All a bum can manage is to be polite and cover up his arrogant evil jerk self for six-second stretches. You get to know him a little more, you will change your tune.I would sooner shoot the bum on the corner than spend $10 on him. These people are such arrogant worthless parasites. They should be locked up in prison, being allowed to be homeless bums on my street is too good for them.
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October 18th, 2007, 10:58 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: rmaxMy list:1. Stop Global Warming2. Free paris Hilton3. Ensure Britney gets custody of her children4. Give Posh something to eat5. Pour billions into Northern Rock to keep it afloat.....1,000,0000 Educate people on Aids1,000,0001 Stop Malaria1,000,0002 Research TB1,000,0003 Stop killer asteroidsIf a meteor hits the earth you are advised to stay inside, close all doors and windows.
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