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Cuchulainn
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Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

QuoteOriginally posted by: rmaxQuoteOriginally posted by: daveangelGod found in Switzerland... Wow.They should call it 'Lugh'.
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Alan
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Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

How exciting! Congrats to all the teams and Peter Higgs.From the NYTimes:QuoteAt CERN itself, 1,000 people stood in line all night to get into the auditorium, according to Guido Tonelli, a CERN physicist who said the atmosphere was like a rock concert. Peter Higgs, the University of Edinburgh theorist for whom the boson is named, entered the meeting to a standing ovation. Part of the Higgs Announcement Presentation in the CERN Auditorium (Hang in -- it gets less technical after 2 mins -- then, you can see the excitement in the place)Peter Higgs:
Last edited by Alan on July 3rd, 2012, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

frolloos
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Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

wonderful to see Peter Higgs receiving a standing ovation from his colleagues. what a great leap for physics and science!

frenchX
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Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

That's indeed a wonderfull result and I can say as physicist that I'm pretty excited about the Higg's boson discovery. Nevertheless I'm a bit skeptical about the 4.9 sigma event. Five sigma is indeed 99.999% of likely hood so it's pretty good but I would like to know is the NUMBER of Higg's event they detected. Sincerely I always had the feeling that 5 sigma is not enough. The good point is that they have a cross sectional inference (gamma, lepton and ZZ) so it tends to prove that's a true discovery but after the neutrino faster than light story I'm a bit confused with CERN ...

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Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

I, too, feel ill at ease with the 5-sigma standard -- if one watches and filters enough events, then even the 1-in-X-million random false signals will occur.

Alan
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T4A and frenchX. I am sensing an arbitrage opp here. I will bet you each $100 this holds up throughall the new data collected by, lets say Dec 2012. If I'm wrong, you each win$100. If I'm right, you payme $25. Takers? quantmeh Posts: 5974 Joined: April 6th, 2007, 1:39 pm Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC) QuoteOriginally posted by: outrunI'm watching a documentary now, and she just mentioned it:400.000 eventsnot enough Traden4Alpha Posts: 23951 Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC) QuoteOriginally posted by: AlanT4A and frenchX. I am sensing an arbitrage opp here. I will bet you each$100 this holds up throughall the new data collected by, lets say Dec 2012. If I'm wrong, you each win $100. If I'm right, you payme$25. Takers?Interesting! Alan, your obvious high-level of knowledge and calm demeanor shown on these forums suggests you have a rational model for the 4:1 odds. Yet your modest odds confirm my fears that even you don't think the data is as strong as the "4.9-sigma" or 1-in-2 million chance of a false result.Admittedly your bet isn't about the existence of the Higgs at this energy and decay signature but regards the next 6 months of data gathering, analysis, and refinement. That's a very different wager that's more tied to the expected volume of new data, volatility of data, and autocorrelation of systemic errors in the experimental methods than to the ultimate truth or falsehood of the "discovery." After all, the group that said "neutrinos travel faster than light" created corroborating data in a second experiment so the "holds up through all the new data by time, T" bet isn't a good one for methodology-skeptics like FrenchX and myself.For the record, I suspect they have found the Higgs but I'm far less confident on the odds due to the potential for systematic errors in the process. Thus, you and I might actually agree that they've probably found the Higgs, but the certainty isn't very high.
Last edited by Traden4Alpha on July 4th, 2012, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cuchulainn
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Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

QuoteThat's indeed a wonderfull result and I can say as physicist that I'm pretty excited about the Higg's boson discoveryWhy your excitement?
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Alan
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Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

T4A,OK, fine -- you pass. It wasn't a trick bet. A bet obviously needs some sensible time horizon and theoffer of 4 to 1 odds was reasonable, given your statement of skepticism. I will guess within 6 months to a year, there will be enough new data to say either "the results hold and we can put this discovery in the textbooks" or "the initial results looks like a surpising statistical fluke". It's an interesting exercise in probs, util-probs, and 'who and what do we trust?'.My experience in physics tells me that this kind of report is highly trustworthy, andit's apples and oranges vs the faster-than-light neutrinos.
Last edited by Alan on July 4th, 2012, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rmax
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Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

There is probably no real commerical value to finding the Higgs but....What is exciting is that by applying a set of models it predicts an outcome. This is then found using suitable complex/heavy weight machines. This is theoretical physics at its best an a priori prediction found to be true.

Alan
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Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Exactly -- similar to Gell-Mann's prediction of the Omega-minus from SU(3)/quarks.Or even Dirac and the positron much earlier -- although I think Dirac was initially confused about that, first not sure what waspredicted, then confusing it with the proton for a while, until others and experiment finally settled it.
Last edited by Alan on July 4th, 2012, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

quantmeh
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Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

QuoteOriginally posted by: AlanOr even Dirac and the positron much earlierHiggs? meh....i want a monopole! I demand! we spent so much money on photoshop, I want to see the beautiful pictures of a monopole. they have to be on a very dark background with cilindrical objects pointing to the center with some red dotted lines shooting out, and several arrows pointing to different particles, and the big arrow pointing to a monopole itself
Last edited by quantmeh on July 4th, 2012, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.