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Traden4Alpha
Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 12th, 2008, 3:45 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnShock, horror. We don't want to return to the pre-Guinness eraOh, that would be bad. If the LHC will help in brewing better beers, then I'm all for it! Let's hear it for "TeV Proton Pale Ale" It's what all the bosons are drinking.Poor TJ -- is that a self portrait in his post? He seems incapable of grasping anything more nuanced than that stick in his picture. "Fire good! LHC good!" If TJ is representative of physics Ph.Ds its a wonder that any of them get hired (and no surprise that we have a credit crisis if folks like TJ are running the models.)Nobody has said that basic research shouldn't be funded. They've only questioned the allocation between different types of research and the probability that research in field i yields cost-effective knowledge in field j.
 
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TraderJoe
Posts: 11048
Joined: February 1st, 2005, 11:21 pm

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 12th, 2008, 3:58 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnShock, horror. We don't want to return to the pre-Guinness eraOh, that would be bad. If the LHC will help in brewing better beers, then I'm all for it! Let's hear it for "TeV Proton Pale Ale" It's what all the bosons are drinking.Poor TJ -- is that a self portrait in his post? He seems incapable of grasping anything more nuanced than that stick in his picture. "Fire good! LHC good!" If TJ is representative of physics Ph.Ds its a wonder that any of them get hired (and no surprise that we have a credit crisis if folks like TJ are running the models.)Nobody has said that basic research shouldn't be funded. They've only questioned the allocation between different types of research and the probability that research in field i yields cost-effective knowledge in field j.Back-tracking now, bitch.
 
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TraderJoe
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Joined: February 1st, 2005, 11:21 pm

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 12th, 2008, 6:19 pm

Quotecuchulainn: Anyway, improve the maths for this stuff and simulate the Big Bang using software CAD and a 100 IBM Blue Genes! You can do many more what-if sceanrios than with physical experiments. That's the way meteorology does it.This line of reasoning is fundamentally flawed. I'll give you an example. Say the quarks were actually discovered to be made up of three more "elementary" particles with their own set of interactions. Or four particles, or five.... Nature only has ONE set of fundamental particles and interactions (geometry), and to discover which this is requires real experiments with real particles and real interactions. Nice try though.
 
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scholar
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Joined: October 17th, 2001, 8:03 pm

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 12th, 2008, 9:31 pm

QuoteThis is the most common misperception about the Higgs in the popular press.The mass of the proton (and the neutron) is almost entirely a binding energy effect due to QCD (quantum chromodynamics)and -not- the Higgs. The Higgs gives the quarks mass, but without it, massless quarks could still bind to produce 99% of the proton mass. So, the Higgs particle/mechanism will help us understand the remaining 1% of the mass of the universe (ignoring dark energy)A better explanation -- The origin of massAlan - quarks do not get their mass from the Higgs, this is due to different mechanisms, but all-importance of the Higgs is not in explaining the "only remaining 1 %" of the mass, but rather in the fact that most of the construction of the modern particle physics (the Standard Model of Electroweak interaction, supersymmetry, string theory) will go to a garbage can it the Higgs is not there.
 
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Man
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Joined: June 27th, 2002, 4:39 pm

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 12th, 2008, 10:41 pm

Just to clarify, as the media is quite ignorant of the fact, the collision has not occured as of yet. Poor Indian girl, someone should have explained it in more detail to her.
 
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TraderJoe
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Joined: February 1st, 2005, 11:21 pm

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 12th, 2008, 10:49 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: scholarQuoteThis is the most common misperception about the Higgs in the popular press.The mass of the proton (and the neutron) is almost entirely a binding energy effect due to QCD (quantum chromodynamics)and -not- the Higgs. The Higgs gives the quarks mass, but without it, massless quarks could still bind to produce 99% of the proton mass. So, the Higgs particle/mechanism will help us understand the remaining 1% of the mass of the universe (ignoring dark energy)A better explanation -- The origin of massAlan - quarks do not get their mass from the Higgs, this is due to different mechanisms, but all-importance of the Higgs is not in explaining the "only remaining 1 %" of the mass, but rather in the fact that most of the construction of the modern particle physics (the Standard Model of Electroweak interaction, supersymmetry, string theory) will go to a garbage can it the Higgs is not there.In string theory, mass, charge and other fundamental particle properties are caused by string vibrations - no need for Higgs?
 
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Alan
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Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 12th, 2008, 11:56 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: scholarQuoteThis is the most common misperception about the Higgs in the popular press.The mass of the proton (and the neutron) is almost entirely a binding energy effect due to QCD (quantum chromodynamics)and -not- the Higgs. The Higgs gives the quarks mass, but without it, massless quarks could still bind to produce 99% of the proton mass. So, the Higgs particle/mechanism will help us understand the remaining 1% of the mass of the universe (ignoring dark energy)A better explanation -- The origin of massAlan - quarks do not get their mass from the Higgs, this is due to different mechanisms, but all-importance of the Higgs is not in explaining the "only remaining 1 %" of the mass, but rather in the fact that most of the construction of the modern particle physics (the Standard Model of Electroweak interaction, supersymmetry, string theory) will go to a garbage can it the Higgs is not there.From what little I know, I agree that the Higgs mechanism is critical to the Standard Model in many ways.But, keeping the discussion within the Standard Model, if the Higgs mechanism doesn't generate quark masses, then please explain the correct mechanism in that framework. I understand there is ambiguity about theterm "quark mass" as they are not observed at rest in isolation. But, ignoring that, my impression was that, before Higgs symmetrybreaking, they start out in the theory massless and, after the symmetry breaking, acquire a mass. (Similar to the way that the W and Z bosons start off massless and then acquire a mass.) Not right??
Last edited by Alan on September 12th, 2008, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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TraderJoe
Posts: 11048
Joined: February 1st, 2005, 11:21 pm

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 13th, 2008, 12:29 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: AlanQuoteOriginally posted by: scholarQuoteThis is the most common misperception about the Higgs in the popular press.The mass of the proton (and the neutron) is almost entirely a binding energy effect due to QCD (quantum chromodynamics)and -not- the Higgs. The Higgs gives the quarks mass, but without it, massless quarks could still bind to produce 99% of the proton mass. So, the Higgs particle/mechanism will help us understand the remaining 1% of the mass of the universe (ignoring dark energy)A better explanation -- The origin of massAlan - quarks do not get their mass from the Higgs, this is due to different mechanisms, but all-importance of the Higgs is not in explaining the "only remaining 1 %" of the mass, but rather in the fact that most of the construction of the modern particle physics (the Standard Model of Electroweak interaction, supersymmetry, string theory) will go to a garbage can it the Higgs is not there.From what little I know, I agree that the Higgs mechanism is critical to the Standard Model in many ways.But, keeping the discussion within the Standard Model, if the Higgs mechanism doesn't generate quark masses, then please explain the correct mechanism in that framework. I understand their is some ambiguity about theterm "quark mass" as they are not observed at rest in isolation. But my impression was that, before Higgs symmetrybreaking, they start out in the theory massless and, after the symmetry breaking, acquire a mass. (In the same way that the W and Z bosons start off massless and then acquire a mass.) Not right??Alan is in fact correct - in the standard model, all massive particles acquire their mass through the Higgs gauge symmetry breaking - W, Z, leptons and quarks.
 
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TraderJoe
Posts: 11048
Joined: February 1st, 2005, 11:21 pm

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 13th, 2008, 12:53 am

What will the lhc find?And remember, a great variety of grand unified models can be constructed, with & without SUSY. Which, if any, are relevant to the natural world is a question yet to be answered.
 
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ppauper
Posts: 70239
Joined: November 15th, 2001, 1:29 pm

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 13th, 2008, 12:44 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnDubbed the "God particle" because it is so crucial to our understanding of the Universe, it is thought to give everything its mass.And what about just before the Big Bang?it sounds like physicists are half-right on this:they appear to have stipulated to the existence of God, but God of course is the supreme being not a particle
 
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ppauper
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Joined: November 15th, 2001, 1:29 pm

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 13th, 2008, 12:46 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4Alpha I've no doubt that finding/not finding the Higgs particle is valuable, but is it the most bang for the basic research buck?and if (as seems likely) they don't find it, they'll simply claim that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and that they need a bigger machine.
 
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TraderJoe
Posts: 11048
Joined: February 1st, 2005, 11:21 pm

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 13th, 2008, 8:45 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: ppauperQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4Alpha I've no doubt that finding/not finding the Higgs particle is valuable, but is it the most bang for the basic research buck?and if (as seems likely) they don't find it, they'll simply claim that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and that they need a bigger machine.Hell yeah !!!!
 
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Traden4Alpha
Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

September 13th, 2008, 10:23 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: ppauperQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4Alpha I've no doubt that finding/not finding the Higgs particle is valuable, but is it the most bang for the basic research buck?and if (as seems likely) they don't find it, they'll simply claim that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and that they need a bigger machine.I think Douglas Adams was doing quite the parody of particle physics in his Hitchhikers series. Perhaps the LHC will spit out the number 42 and CERN will need to build an accelerator the size of a planet to figure out the question it asked when it banged its subatomic rocks together. Meanwhile the theoreticians will invent a 3rd family of particles with 1/3 spin called "nonsequiturions" and have a grand old time getting up to their elbow patches in chalkdust.
Last edited by Traden4Alpha on September 13th, 2008, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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