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Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 7th, 2008, 11:54 pm
by Man
When the particles are actually collided, will the Higgs boson be observed?LHC

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 8th, 2008, 1:15 pm
by ppauper
more to the point, will the planet still be here ?QuoteProf Otto Rossler, a German chemist who is one of a group of scientists attempting a last-minute court challenge to the project, is especially worried about the creation of black holes.He believes it is possible that the black holes will grow uncontrollably and "eat the planet from the inside".

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 8th, 2008, 3:13 pm
by rmax
Planet will still be here (if not the Credit crunch will look like a storm in a tea cup )Higgs Boson will almost be discovered. It will be something like: "We see something that could be the Higgs, but it is the wrong energy, wrong parity or something"

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 8th, 2008, 9:42 pm
by Traden4Alpha
If a Higgs boson decays in a forest, and no detector is there to observe it, does anyone get a Nobel?The black hole doomsday scenario is almost certainly not going to happen. But given our singular lack of experimental experience with singularities, I think some might be forgiven for being worried that this is one test of theoretical physics that shouldn't be done on Earth.The Drake equation and Fermi paradox have considered the potentially finite lifespan of advanced civilizations but the ET hunters always assumed that war was the likely mechanism for self-extinction. But perhaps cat-killing curiosity and LHC-style physics is the real reason we see no other intelligent life in the galaxy. Any sufficiently advanced civilization will ultimately stumble on to particle physics, make a black hole, and disappear in a gamma ray burst. The fact that an LHC is much cheaper than a self-sustaining presence in outerspace would mean that a civilization would create its blackhole before it creates space colonies far enough from the mother planet to survive the blackhole's formation.

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 8th, 2008, 10:31 pm
by TraderJoe
I'll say yes.

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 9th, 2008, 7:27 am
by rmax
QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaIf a Higgs boson decays in a forest, and no detector is there to observe it, does anyone get a Nobel?The black hole doomsday scenario is almost certainly not going to happen. But given our singular lack of experimental experience with singularities, I think some might be forgiven for being worried that this is one test of theoretical physics that shouldn't be done on Earth.The Drake equation and Fermi paradox have considered the potentially finite lifespan of advanced civilizations but the ET hunters always assumed that war was the likely mechanism for self-extinction. But perhaps cat-killing curiosity and LHC-style physics is the real reason we see no other intelligent life in the galaxy. Any sufficiently advanced civilization will ultimately stumble on to particle physics, make a black hole, and disappear in a gamma ray burst. The fact that an LHC is much cheaper than a self-sustaining presence in outerspace would mean that a civilization would create its blackhole before it creates space colonies far enough from the mother planet to survive the blackhole's formation.Nice bit of logic!I agree the blank-hole is unlikely, but we have never observed Hawking radation, and we all know about Physics knowlege in and around small singularaties and the issues that produces. So it is all very well being confident but....When the switched on the first nuclear pile in the squash they were concerned about thermal runaway and the potential for the core to get so hot it would burn through the planet core "to China" (hence the term China Syndrome) - they even installed a man with an axe to cut the ropes that held the graphite rods to stop the reactor. When they detonated the first atomic bomb, there were similar concerns that the all the oxygen in the atmosphere would burn.

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 9th, 2008, 12:36 pm
by scholar
If it has any parity, it is certainly not Higgs, as it is not a boson

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 9th, 2008, 12:53 pm
by ppauper
QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaThe black hole doomsday scenario is almost certainly not going to happen. "almost certainly not going to happen" means it's possible but unlikely.Given that you think it's possible, how "almost certain" are you that it won't occur and what is your basis for assigning that probability ?90% certain ?99.99% certain ?

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 9th, 2008, 1:29 pm
by Traden4Alpha
QuoteOriginally posted by: ppauperQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaThe black hole doomsday scenario is almost certainly not going to happen. "almost certainly not going to happen" means it's possible but unlikely.Given that you think it's possible, how "almost certain" are you that it won't occur and what is your basis for assigning that probability ?90% certain ?99.99% certain ?That's a very hard problem because we are forced to estimate the chance of an error in what we know based on what we know. I see two approaches:1) Limits of Knowledge: A detailed study of the history of physics could estimate the rate at which prevailing physical theories are proved wrong over time. The rate of turn-over of physical theory (and the age of the constituent theories used to dispel blackhole fears) could be used to estimate the probability that we don't understand blackholes well enough to predict their behavior.2) Cosmological Evidence: What is the natural rate of LHC-class energetic events in or around dense objects and the observed rate of blackholed objects? The fact that none of our solar system's planets has been converted to a blackhole by the incoming bombardment of ultra-high energy cosmic rays suggests we may be safe. Yet this evidence is far from conclusive because the behavior of a near light-speed attogram blackhole in the upper atmosphere may be different from the behavior of a near-stationary attogram blackhole created near a solid metal mass.

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 9th, 2008, 1:55 pm
by Alan
So, worst case -- the LHC creates a micro black hole that does not evaporate, and it beginseating the earth. How long do we have? I see Newport Beach is still doing quite nicely at this stage, except for the congestion causedfrom all the immigrants from down-under Also, I predict many excellent parties!

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 9th, 2008, 2:31 pm
by qhedge

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 9th, 2008, 3:17 pm
by TraderJoe
Don't listen to Traden4Alpha.The end is nigh, not.

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 9th, 2008, 3:50 pm
by Traden4Alpha
QuoteOriginally written by: Jos Engelen, CERN’s Chief Scientific OfficerThe LHC safety review has shown that the LHC is perfectly safe, it points out that Nature has already conducted the equivalent of about a hundred thousand LHC experimental programmes on Earth – and the planet still exists.”First, this would seem to suggest that the probability of a P(blackhole doomsday) < 99.999% which aren't very good odds considering the impact (6.6 billion dead). In a linear utility space, the expected number of deaths from the LHC is under 66,000 people. Of course, this figure may be optimistic because it assumes that: 1) the "hundred thousand LHC experimental programmes on Earth" figure is correct and 2) none of the mass extinction events in the Earth's history were LHC-like events.Second, we seem to have a case of the fox guarding the henhouse -- those whose careers and life-long goals depend on the LHC are passing judgement on the LHC. Could a physicist actually object to the LHC and expect no social pressures to recant or repercussions from their peers? Shouldn't the recent subprime mortgage mess show us the fundamental limits of regulators/risk managers that aren't wholly independent of the system that they regulate.But I do agree with Alan that the EOE (End-Of-Earth) parties would be fun. Of course the doubling time for the blackhole would need to be at least 10 minutes to give people 24 hours to put together the party.

Higgs boson - Large Hadron Collider (LHC)

Posted: September 9th, 2008, 3:53 pm
by Cuchulainn
QuoteBut I do agree with Alan that the EOE (End-Of-Earth) parties would be fun. Of course the doubling time for the blackhole would need to be at least 10 minutes to give people 24 hours to put together the party. Maybe a fortune teller?