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dunrewpp
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March 14th, 2010, 8:56 pm

Fermion, Never forget that gardener3 is a classic case of a self-satisfied agent of annoyance. He consistently misreads other posters' comments and imputes false statements to others. I never based my erstwhile statements on having met couple of muslim people. What I said was that "I have lived a lifetime among muslims". A lifetime is a long long time in which anyone would meet thousands of people, would know their customs, way of life, character, etc. etc. Somehow this self-satisfied dimwit gardener3 cannot see the difference between "lifetime" and "couple of people". Simply put, that is why I did not even bother to answer him.QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3So how is logical to make judgements on groups of people as diverse as those living from Albania to China based on a couple people you met? Perhaps you could argue that they all share common belief in a book. But you haven't read the book. Incurable arrogance?Well, you don't have to read a book to know that Islam is a religion. That's quite enough for me to make a judgment about its true believers being superstitious, dogmatic and blinkered agents of oppression -- however nice they may be in other ways.
 
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March 14th, 2010, 10:13 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: dunrewppFermion, Never forget that gardener3 is a classic case of a self-satisfied agent of annoyance. He consistently misreads other posters' comments and imputes false statements to others. I never based my erstwhile statements on having met couple of muslim people. What I said was that "I have lived a lifetime among muslims". A lifetime is a long long time in which anyone would meet thousands of people, would know their customs, way of life, character, etc. etc. Somehow this self-satisfied dimwit gardener3 cannot see the difference between "lifetime" and "couple of people". Simply put, that is why I did not even bother to answer him.QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3So how is logical to make judgements on groups of people as diverse as those living from Albania to China based on a couple people you met? Perhaps you could argue that they all share common belief in a book. But you haven't read the book. Incurable arrogance?Well, you don't have to read a book to know that Islam is a religion. That's quite enough for me to make a judgment about its true believers being superstitious, dogmatic and blinkered agents of oppression -- however nice they may be in other ways.Lol. You want to protest people giving out cookies in a library and I am a 'self-satisfied agent of annoyance'? You are a friggin retard, and there is zero logic in what you wrote. Even if you lived a hundred lifetimes, you would not have the experience to characterize a range of people from a poor uyghur farmer in china to a rich muslim banker in Istanbul. They have nothing in common, nothing linking the two except a moral code written in a book. And the context within which that code is processed matters. I've also lived "lifetime" amongst atheists, and in fact I found the percentage of assholes with incurable arrogance to be higher amongst atheists then believers. By your moronic logic, therefore, I can characterize all atheists.
 
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dunrewpp
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March 15th, 2010, 12:58 am

To gardener3,By every passing comment, you show yourself to be a "classic case of a self-satisfied agent of annoyance", repeatably so!Have you ever lived a lifetime in a muslim country? You have not. I have.Have you ever lived a lifetime in an atheist country? No one has. Not even you.So it is a lie to say of yourself that "I've also lived "lifetime" amongst atheists". Where, what community of atheists did you live amongst night and day for a lifetime? None!You are a liar.Not only you do not have the decency to acknowledge your misrepresentation of what I said earlier (e.g., "lifetime"), but you go on the offensive to amplify your attack from "couple of people" thingy to the notion that even a lifetime does not suffice to form a legit observation. So, we can't get an honest acknowledgment from you.You made a hefty statement when you wrote: "you would not have the experience to characterize a range of people from a poor uyghur farmer in china to a rich muslim banker in Istanbul." So, I wonder can anyone say anything about any group of people? Is it possible to extract the muslimness of, say "uyghur farmer", by studying it? Isn't Islam a way of life? Would it be fair to ask whether anthropologists and sociologist are out of work? So, how can we resolve the situation? I mean: how can we form legitimate observations and assertions about people espousing certain beliefs and dogged behavior based on those beliefs? So, when 'every' muslim doggedly defends the holiness (or divinity) of their prophet Mohammed even when we show that the dude said or did some awful things, what are we to make of that? Look, this whole thing really began when I challenged the poster Owais, a muslim, to read THE TERRORS OF ISLAM. He hasn't come back yet, and he never will. Why do you think that is so? Why don't you prod Owais to learn something? It's his muslimness that prevents him from reading a single page critical of Islam. I will read the Quran anytime: I want to and I will. Just not now, I am busy doing other things and can't spend time reading a whole book, as opposed to a single page. QuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3QuoteOriginally posted by: dunrewppFermion, Never forget that gardener3 is a classic case of a self-satisfied agent of annoyance. He consistently misreads other posters' comments and imputes false statements to others. I never based my erstwhile statements on having met couple of muslim people. What I said was that "I have lived a lifetime among muslims". A lifetime is a long long time in which anyone would meet thousands of people, would know their customs, way of life, character, etc. etc. Somehow this self-satisfied dimwit gardener3 cannot see the difference between "lifetime" and "couple of people". Simply put, that is why I did not even bother to answer him.QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3So how is logical to make judgements on groups of people as diverse as those living from Albania to China based on a couple people you met? Perhaps you could argue that they all share common belief in a book. But you haven't read the book. Incurable arrogance?Well, you don't have to read a book to know that Islam is a religion. That's quite enough for me to make a judgment about its true believers being superstitious, dogmatic and blinkered agents of oppression -- however nice they may be in other ways.Lol. You want to protest people giving out cookies in a library and I am a 'self-satisfied agent of annoyance'? You are a friggin retard, and there is zero logic in what you wrote. Even if you lived a hundred lifetimes, you would not have the experience to characterize a range of people from a poor uyghur farmer in china to a rich muslim banker in Istanbul. They have nothing in common, nothing linking the two except a moral code written in a book. And the context within which that code is processed matters. I've also lived "lifetime" amongst atheists, and in fact I found the percentage of assholes with incurable arrogance to be higher amongst atheists then believers. By your moronic logic, therefore, I can characterize all atheists.
Last edited by dunrewpp on March 14th, 2010, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Owais
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March 15th, 2010, 2:38 am

Hey I am Back I was busy ...Man I Have read whatever you write I havent Imposed any One to read Quran I was just telling to Whom Wanna See or Understand About Islam He or She then Should read the Holy Book "The Holy Quran"The Holy Quran--- WORD Of GOD Like I said in my previous post if you just search againts Islam and Muslims you will find tons of literature " The TERRORS OF ISLAM" etc 10000 of Articles is nothing but Misconception about Islam and Muslims...therefore I always say If you Wanna See true Picture Do not See What Muslims are doing See What "Quran" is saying ... Peace
 
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Fermion
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March 15th, 2010, 3:25 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: OwaisHey I am Back I was busy ...Man I Have read whatever you write I havent Imposed any One to read Quran I was just telling to Whom Wanna See or Understand About Islam He or She then Should read the Holy Book "The Holy Quran"The Holy Quran--- WORD Of GOD Like I said in my previous post if you just search againts Islam and Muslims you will find tons of literature " The TERRORS OF ISLAM" etc 10000 of Articles is nothing but Misconception about Islam and Muslims...therefore I always say If you Wanna See true Picture Do not See What Muslims are doing See What "Quran" is saying ... PeaceSo we could understand European history by reading Hans Christian Andersen?
 
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March 15th, 2010, 3:28 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3So how is logical to make judgements on groups of people as diverse as those living from Albania to China based on a couple people you met? Perhaps you could argue that they all share common belief in a book. But you haven't read the book. Incurable arrogance?Well, you don't have to read a book to know that Islam is a religion. That's quite enough for me to make a judgment about its true believers being superstitious, dogmatic and blinkered agents of oppression -- however nice they may be in other ways.Say we define religion as belief in an imaginary deity plus a lifestyle/moral code. Since you are ignoring the latter, then any belief in imaginary beings like Santa Claus is 'sufficient to be dogmatic and blinkered agents of oppression'.g3, it's difficult to understand what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to suggest that a child believing in Santa Claus is equivalent to organized religion? I expect much better of you.
 
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Owais
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March 15th, 2010, 3:56 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: OwaisHey I am Back I was busy ...Man I Have read whatever you write I havent Imposed any One to read Quran I was just telling to Whom Wanna See or Understand About Islam He or She then Should read the Holy Book "The Holy Quran"The Holy Quran--- WORD Of GOD Like I said in my previous post if you just search againts Islam and Muslims you will find tons of literature " The TERRORS OF ISLAM" etc 10000 of Articles is nothing but Misconception about Islam and Muslims...therefore I always say If you Wanna See true Picture Do not See What Muslims are doing See What "Quran" is saying ... PeaceSo we could understand European history by reading Hans Christian Andersen?I dont have any Idea about Euorpean History...
 
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dunrewpp
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March 15th, 2010, 4:43 am

Hey gardener3,Look at this Owais dude's response. Can you smell the stench of closed-mindedness in his response? Can you?There he says it with consummate incurable arrogance: "The Holy Quran--- WORD Of GOD".Do you think anything can penetrate this guy's skull?If muslims, like Owais, are those who by definition follow the teachings of Quran, then what are we to make of Owais's comment "If you Wanna See true Picture Do not See What Muslims are doing See What "Quran" is saying ... "? After having read and absorbed Quran, muslims, like Owais, remain incurably arrogant, without for a moment feeling a need to prove their case, and continue to behave according to teachings of Quran. That tells a lot about Quran itself.But I agree: One must examine the true source for a deeper understanding of its effects. I will read Quran at some point in time - the sooner, the better. If one billion of the world population is muslim, then I think it's a good idea to read their book in order to have a better understanding of the muslims.QuoteOriginally posted by: OwaisHey I am Back I was busy ...Man I Have read whatever you write I havent Imposed any One to read Quran I was just telling to Whom Wanna See or Understand About Islam He or She then Should read the Holy Book "The Holy Quran"The Holy Quran--- WORD Of GOD Like I said in my previous post if you just search againts Islam and Muslims you will find tons of literature " The TERRORS OF ISLAM" etc 10000 of Articles is nothing but Misconception about Islam and Muslims...therefore I always say If you Wanna See true Picture Do not See What Muslims are doing See What "Quran" is saying ... Peace
Last edited by dunrewpp on March 14th, 2010, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Fermion
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March 15th, 2010, 4:47 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: OwaisQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: OwaisHey I am Back I was busy ...Man I Have read whatever you write I havent Imposed any One to read Quran I was just telling to Whom Wanna See or Understand About Islam He or She then Should read the Holy Book "The Holy Quran"The Holy Quran--- WORD Of GOD Like I said in my previous post if you just search againts Islam and Muslims you will find tons of literature " The TERRORS OF ISLAM" etc 10000 of Articles is nothing but Misconception about Islam and Muslims...therefore I always say If you Wanna See true Picture Do not See What Muslims are doing See What "Quran" is saying ... PeaceSo we could understand European history by reading Hans Christian Andersen?I dont have any Idea about Euorpean History...Or anything other than the superstitious dogma in the Quran, apparently.
 
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trackstar
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March 15th, 2010, 4:54 am

Have any of you besides Owais learned any Arabic? Could you point to Mecca on a map quickly? What do you know about the history of that region before, say WWI or WWII?Maybe the Brits are a little bit better educated on this front. Most Americans would be hopeless.
 
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gardener3
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March 15th, 2010, 12:46 pm

QuoteBy every passing comment, you show yourself to be a "classic case of a self-satisfied agent of annoyance", repeatably so!Have you ever lived a lifetime in a muslim country? You have not. I have.Have you ever lived a lifetime in an atheist country? No one has. Not even you.So it is a lie to say of yourself that "I've also lived "lifetime" amongst atheists". Where, what community of atheists did you live amongst night and day for a lifetime? None!You are a liar.Not only you do not have the decency to acknowledge your misrepresentation of what I said earlier (e.g., "lifetime"), but you go on the offensive to amplify your attack from "couple of people" thingy to the notion that even a lifetime does not suffice to form a legit observation. So, we can't get an honest acknowledgment from you.You made a hefty statement when you wrote: "you would not have the experience to characterize a range of people from a poor uyghur farmer in china to a rich muslim banker in Istanbul." So, I wonder can anyone say anything about any group of people? Is it possible to extract the muslimness of, say "uyghur farmer", by studying it? Isn't Islam a way of life? Would it be fair to ask whether anthropologists and sociologist are out of work? So, how can we resolve the situation? I mean: how can we form legitimate observations and assertions about people espousing certain beliefs and dogged behavior based on those beliefs? So, when 'every' muslim doggedly defends the holiness (or divinity) of their prophet Mohammed even when we show that the dude said or did some awful things, what are we to make of that? Look, this whole thing really began when I challenged the poster Owais, a muslim, to read THE TERRORS OF ISLAM. He hasn't come back yet, and he never will. Why do you think that is so? Why don't you prod Owais to learn something? It's his muslimness that prevents him from reading a single page critical of Islam. I will read the Quran anytime: I want to and I will. Just not now, I am busy doing other things and can't spend time reading a whole book, as opposed to a single page. You seem incapable of basic reasoning. How do you know that I have or have not lived a lifetime in a muslim country? Yet, after you write this, you accuse me of lying and misrepresentation. I guess consistentcy is not your thing. I don't care much for anectodal stories when someone is making claims about a billion people. Couple people and a lifetime are similar - doesn't matter whether you divide 100 or 10 by a billion. What you have said is no different than "I have lived a lifetime amongst blacks, I know these people. They are a bunch of lazy stupid people" Or, "I have lived a lifetime amongst jews, they are a bunch of penny pinchers who only take care of theirown". There are a dozen assumptions and basic logical errors in that statement, and I have pointed out only one. And after that you started calling me names, again something you accuse me of doing. There is no logic in anything you write and I am done arguing with you.
 
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gardener3
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March 15th, 2010, 12:56 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3So how is logical to make judgements on groups of people as diverse as those living from Albania to China based on a couple people you met? Perhaps you could argue that they all share common belief in a book. But you haven't read the book. Incurable arrogance?Well, you don't have to read a book to know that Islam is a religion. That's quite enough for me to make a judgment about its true believers being superstitious, dogmatic and blinkered agents of oppression -- however nice they may be in other ways.Say we define religion as belief in an imaginary deity plus a lifestyle/moral code. Since you are ignoring the latter, then any belief in imaginary beings like Santa Claus is 'sufficient to be dogmatic and blinkered agents of oppression'.g3, it's difficult to understand what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to suggest that a child believing in Santa Claus is equivalent to organized religion? I expect much better of you.Gee, sorry to disappoint What distinguishes organized religion from organized anything? Let's say, belief in an imaginary being + a moral/lifestyle code. Assuming not every organized X is an agent of oppression, it must be either the belief in an imaginary being or the code. Since you said you don't need to know the code, it must be the belief. The point is that if you haven't Quran, you don't know what that code is. Quran is based largely on the old testament. It is full of inconsistencies and contain a number of moral messages specific to the times (like pervasive slavery). Take conversion, you can find Muhammed saying that Islam is voluntary is not to be forced on anyone, and also find him saying that those who refuse to convert are to be cross-amputated and left in the desert to die. There are over 200 such obvious contradictions (not counting mere inconsistencies) in Quran alone. One can't say that there is inherently anything in Islamic teachings. People will read their own prejudices, biases and beliefs and interpret anything they want.
Last edited by gardener3 on March 14th, 2010, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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dunrewpp
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March 15th, 2010, 2:09 pm

gardener3 - you are quite a piece of work!Don't just stop at criticizing me for accusing you of something. Doggone it, answer the damned accusation. Have you or have you not lived a lifetime in a muslim country? Let's say, have you lived continuously for 10 or more years in a muslim country? It is true that I have made an assumption without any direct evidence. You can always prove me wrong by answering accordingly. But you don't give a direct answer to the accusation and all you focus on is my so-called logical error, that is merely an assumption. Now, show me how logical you are and answer the damned question: Have you or have you not lived a lifetime (10+ years) in a muslim country?And it is apparent even to you, if you are capable of a smidgen of honesty, that I accused you of lying in relation to your implied claim that you have lived a lifetime in an atheist country (being the main point of comparison) or community. Just go back and for once exercise a bit of precision and look at your own earlier statement about having lived a lifetime amongst atheists. Living amongst atheists is not the same as living in an atheist community or country. So, back to the question: What community or country of atheists did you live day and night for 10 or more years? And, you can also tell how long you lived continuously in such a community. Go for it.QuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3QuoteBy every passing comment, you show yourself to be a "classic case of a self-satisfied agent of annoyance", repeatably so!Have you ever lived a lifetime in a muslim country? You have not. I have.Have you ever lived a lifetime in an atheist country? No one has. Not even you.So it is a lie to say of yourself that "I've also lived "lifetime" amongst atheists". Where, what community of atheists did you live amongst night and day for a lifetime? None!You are a liar.Not only you do not have the decency to acknowledge your misrepresentation of what I said earlier (e.g., "lifetime"), but you go on the offensive to amplify your attack from "couple of people" thingy to the notion that even a lifetime does not suffice to form a legit observation. So, we can't get an honest acknowledgment from you.You made a hefty statement when you wrote: "you would not have the experience to characterize a range of people from a poor uyghur farmer in china to a rich muslim banker in Istanbul." So, I wonder can anyone say anything about any group of people? Is it possible to extract the muslimness of, say "uyghur farmer", by studying it? Isn't Islam a way of life? Would it be fair to ask whether anthropologists and sociologist are out of work? So, how can we resolve the situation? I mean: how can we form legitimate observations and assertions about people espousing certain beliefs and dogged behavior based on those beliefs? So, when 'every' muslim doggedly defends the holiness (or divinity) of their prophet Mohammed even when we show that the dude said or did some awful things, what are we to make of that? Look, this whole thing really began when I challenged the poster Owais, a muslim, to read THE TERRORS OF ISLAM. He hasn't come back yet, and he never will. Why do you think that is so? Why don't you prod Owais to learn something? It's his muslimness that prevents him from reading a single page critical of Islam. I will read the Quran anytime: I want to and I will. Just not now, I am busy doing other things and can't spend time reading a whole book, as opposed to a single page. You seem incapable of basic reasoning. How do you know that I have or have not lived a lifetime in a muslim country? Yet, after you write this, you accuse me of lying and misrepresentation. I guess consistentcy is not your thing. I don't care much for anectodal stories when someone is making claims about a billion people. Couple people and a lifetime are similar - doesn't matter whether you divide 100 or 10 by a billion. What you have said is no different than "I have lived a lifetime amongst blacks, I know these people. They are a bunch of lazy stupid people" Or, "I have lived a lifetime amongst jews, they are a bunch of penny pinchers who only take care of theirown". There are a dozen assumptions and basic logical errors in that statement, and I have pointed out only one. And after that you started calling me names, again something you accuse me of doing. There is no logic in anything you write and I am done arguing with you.
Last edited by dunrewpp on March 14th, 2010, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Fermion
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March 15th, 2010, 3:31 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: gardener3Gee, sorry to disappoint What distinguishes organized religion from organized anything? Let's say, belief in an imaginary being + a moral/lifestyle code. I strongly doubt that you don't know that is an entirely inadequate definition.The whole point of religion (as opposed to personal mystical/spiritual beliefs) is that it is used for social control. And social control can only be enforced by oppression. And that has always been the case with Islam just as much as every other well-known religion. To ignore that is silly.
 
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March 15th, 2010, 4:32 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Hamiltonthen any belief in imaginary beings like Santa Claus is 'sufficient to be dogmatic and blinkered agents of oppression'. A belief in Platonic solids can also lead to blinkered oppression.Any belief system inflicted on any other person is oppressive. And any such victim passing the same imposition on to others becomes an agent of oppression. The extent to which it is oppressive depends on exactly what is enforced and how. Telling a child about Santa Claus while they are still very young and unable to create their own existence and in the same spirit as telling them fairy tales is hardly in the same league as deceiving and imposing laws on adults in order to facilitate the private control of social wealth (though I'll agree that the former aids the latter in later life -- my own son's development as a powerful rational being benefited greatly from his understanding, as early as he was able, the difference between reality and the stories in the children's books he loved).
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