SERVING THE QUANTITATIVE FINANCE COMMUNITY

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 15
 
User avatar
brontosaurus
Topic Author
Posts: 2035
Joined: May 10th, 2004, 8:33 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 23rd, 2010, 7:03 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenQuoteOriginally posted by: brontosaurus(Won't there also be an uproar if he doesn't serve time? And what do you think his life expectancy is now?)Contrary to what Avtogner tell you, this is not Iran.It is, however, awfully similar to Mississippi. And probably Mississippi fifty years ago.I would say that that is also an exaggeration, Israel is an imperfect -- and flawed -- democracy. But it is also a young country at war and there is little historical precedent to assume it would be otherwise. I think in the context of a region where ethnic identity is a powerful factor (or even THE determining factor) in politics, minorities have more rights here than other minorities do in most -- possibly all -- other countries in the Middle East. So I think you make an incorrect comparison. I don't think there is a accurate historical precedent, quite frankly. And if you look at how unjustly Fermion's parents treated Germans in WW2, or your country treated the Japanese, one might expect some humility.
 
User avatar
Marsden
Posts: 3829
Joined: August 20th, 2001, 5:42 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 23rd, 2010, 1:53 pm

There is no such thing as an incorrect comparison. There may be incorrect conclusions or parallels drawn from a comparison, but this is not because the comparison itself is incorrect.The similarities between circa 1960 Mississippi and present day Israel are in that in both the ethnic majority espoused, by degrees informally and formally, a notion of ethnic nationalism that the cultures with which they otherwise associated themselves had strongly rejected. In Mississippi, it was plain vanilla racism; in Israel it is Jewish chauvinism.In both, one of the most objectionable things was a sexual relationship between a female from the dominant majority and a male of the discriminated against minority. We may hope that the repercussions for such a relationship in Israel today are not of the degree that they were in Mississippi circa 1960:But the sentiment is largely the same, isn't it?And how different from American destruction of African American neighborhoods in Tulsa and elsewhere during our period of extreme racism are the actions of Israeli settlers, with the support of the US-funded Israeli government, against Palestinians in the West Bank? Not much.What you should be worried about, bronto, is how the concealed undergarments of the parents become the proud formal wear of the children. We're seeing it happen in Israel.
 
User avatar
brontosaurus
Topic Author
Posts: 2035
Joined: May 10th, 2004, 8:33 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 23rd, 2010, 3:01 pm

The comparison, which rings the alarm bells and might as well be a conclusion, is incorrect.Non-Jewish citizens in Israel have the same rights as Jews in the eyes of the law, and have freedom of expression, and fully representative political power. That, as far as I know, is far more than blacks did in Mississippi. So the comparison, or your conclusion about it, is false.If anything the situation with Israel and the Palestinians is like that of the first colonizing Americans -- who didn't really leave much behind. Or WW2 England and USA.This case in discussion is also not a case of legislative bias against Arabs. The woman who has brought the claim did so under a law that most likely comes from an era of big government in Israel, legislators thought they could create a law that would prosecute a woman for being seduced under false pretenses. Very silly. Perhaps a reflection of how times have changed. Is she a chauvinist? In as much as an Arab might be embarrassed about sleeping with a Jew, probably. But is the law? No.And you asked why the court decided to apply the law? Well, I'm no legal expert, but I assume the judges role is to apply the law, not fight it. Judges who disagree with laws still have to apply them
 
User avatar
Marsden
Posts: 3829
Joined: August 20th, 2001, 5:42 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 23rd, 2010, 3:54 pm

The particular case is mostly silly; the underlying bigotry of Israel is not.
 
User avatar
Hamilton
Posts: 5976
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 6:25 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 23rd, 2010, 5:10 pm

I really don't have much time but I thought I'd just drop in to say that the sales are great, and I'm shoppingtill I drop here in Gaza. Miss you all. You should see the cologne counter! Mars, I'll be sure and stop by the concealed undergarments and formal wear desks and tell them to call you.From the Palestine Times
 
User avatar
Marsden
Posts: 3829
Joined: August 20th, 2001, 5:42 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 23rd, 2010, 5:25 pm

Speaking of underlying bigotry ...
 
User avatar
Hamilton
Posts: 5976
Joined: July 23rd, 2001, 6:25 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 23rd, 2010, 5:47 pm

QuoteThere is no such thing as an incorrect comparison. For those of you following along in Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student, Fourth Edition, by Edward P.J. Corbett and Robert J. Connorswe are in Chapter 2 - Discovery of Arguments - The Topics, on page 92 - 95 arguing for a comparison being an indication of similarity which "is the basic principle behind all inductive argument and all analogy."I return you to your regularly scheduled programming...
 
User avatar
brontosaurus
Topic Author
Posts: 2035
Joined: May 10th, 2004, 8:33 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 24th, 2010, 6:08 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenThe particular case is mostly silly; the underlying bigotry of Israel is not.What is quite serious is your choice to ignore context, which makes Israel look not quite as bad as you want it to.Look at how Christians fair in Egypt (US $), Sudan or Pakistan (US $). Look at how Morocco treats its Sahrawi population. Check out how Bashar Assad (who won an incredible 97% of the vote in Syria in 2007) treats his Jews. You could also check out the human rights situation in Lebanon, where Palestinians are barred from a pretty long list of occupations like medicine, law and engineering.But you won't.
Last edited by brontosaurus on July 23rd, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
brontosaurus
Topic Author
Posts: 2035
Joined: May 10th, 2004, 8:33 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 24th, 2010, 6:25 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Marsdenaccording to traditional Judaism, for example, Christians, but not Muslims, are idolators.I just wanted to comment on this as it is an interesting area.The earliest comments on Christianity by Jewish commentators who are widely revered to this day are from Maimonides (Rambam) and Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki ("Rashi") in the 10th and 11th century. To Orthodox Jews both these Rabbis are intellectual giants -- and they held widely differing views. Maimonides lived in Muslim Egypt expressed hostility towards the idea of the Trinity, however, Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki who lived in Christian France did not. In today's Orthodox world, I believe the Chief Rabbi of England, Jonathan Sacks, does not consider Christianity to be idolatry. Here is the Chief Rabbi of Milan, who I think is worth reading:QuoteThe Sephardic front is authoritatively represented by Maimonides, who, if compared with the diversified position of the Talmud, takes a more radical and univocal stance, eliminating the distinction between the inhabitants of the land of Israel and those living outside Israel, treating all Christians as idolaters tout-court. Next to this negative vision of Christian theology, Maimonides does however give a more open and moderate assessment of the Messianic role of Christianity and Islam in the world. Here is for instance a passage of the Treatise on Kings, which does not appear in all editions (of the Mishneh Torah), because in most of them it is censored: "To understand the thoughts of the Creator of the world is not possible to man, because our ways are not His ways and our thoughts are not His thoughts (Is 55,8); nevertheless, all the words of Jesus of Nazareth and of the son of Ishmael [Mohammed] who came after him are aimed at paving the way to the King-Messiah and at preparing the whole world to serve God together, as it is written: because I shall then transform the language of the peoples into a pure language, so that all shall invoke the Name of the Lord shall serve him in a sole unit [all together, in harmony] (Sof. 3,9)?. Following the line of thought begun by Yehuda ha-Levy in the Kuzari, Maimonides lets Christianity and Islam, so to speak, do a 'qualitative leap': he includes the two religions within a sole providential plan that sees them as protagonists of a preparatory itinerary of humanity as a whole towards the Messianic event.In the so-called Ashkenazi world, where we find personalities such as Rashi, the Tosafists, and other rabbinical authorities who carry much weight in the French-Germanic environment, it is emphasized that the Christians (in the countries where the Jews lived) are not idolaters. We can therefore see a rather marked distinction between the evaluation of the Christians given by the Sephardic world represented by Maimonides and the evaluation given in general by the highest authorities of the European Ashkenazi world. According to the latter, the Christians are not idolaters, or they do not know of any idolatrous practice, or echoing the well-known claim by Rabbi Yohanan mentioned earlier (from the treatise Hullin of the Talmud) what they do is to practice out of habit the rituals of their fathers, without any intention of thereby carrying out idolatrous practices. In such a delicate context, we ought to mention a rather odd circumstance. In a very important halakhic text (the Tur by Ya?aqov ben Asher), the controversialist and jurist Joseph Caro explicitly mentions that "at the present time [we are in the 16th century], the Christians believe in the Creator of the world and thus are not to be considered idolaters." In another work of his, the codifying treatise Shulhan Arukh, the same Joseph Caro does however fail completely to mention his conviction as a halakhic norm. On a personal note, I have some of Fr James Schall's most popular books, and I find them very useful.
Last edited by brontosaurus on July 23rd, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Marsden
Posts: 3829
Joined: August 20th, 2001, 5:42 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 26th, 2010, 8:44 pm

Mississippi.
 
User avatar
brontosaurus
Topic Author
Posts: 2035
Joined: May 10th, 2004, 8:33 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 27th, 2010, 6:40 am

Religious Zionism, which didn't figure too well in that poll, has indeed been dominated by the settler movement, but that is certainly not the final say on the matter. There is the slow emergence of a religious left, of which I see myself a part, but we are silenced when things like rockets fall in Israeli towns.But apart from the fact that you could certainly do more research, my biggest problem with your comparison is that in Mississippi there was no war. That is just a small fact that massively changes the picture.How do you think American 13 to 17 year olds would have done when asked about treatment of Japanese-Americans in 1942?
Last edited by brontosaurus on July 26th, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Marsden
Posts: 3829
Joined: August 20th, 2001, 5:42 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 27th, 2010, 12:43 pm

Should we excuse a lot of Nazism? They had a war.
 
User avatar
brontosaurus
Topic Author
Posts: 2035
Joined: May 10th, 2004, 8:33 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 28th, 2010, 12:22 am

your intellectual standards are declining.
 
User avatar
quantmeh
Posts: 5974
Joined: April 6th, 2007, 1:39 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 28th, 2010, 12:23 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: brontosaurusThere is the slow emergence of a religious leftwhat?! nutheads can be left?
 
User avatar
Marsden
Posts: 3829
Joined: August 20th, 2001, 5:42 pm

Israel and its Critics

July 28th, 2010, 3:11 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: brontosaurusyour intellectual standards are declining.Feh. Have intellectual arguments ever held sway with you?You remind me of someone who has committed a horrible crime, caught red-handed, and exposed briefly to the media before his lawyer has a chance to tell him to shut up, who thinks for some reason that the appropriate thing to say in this situation is that the past is the past and its time for us to let the healing begin.Which, admittedly, may say more about the argument you have found yourself needing to defend than about you yourself.But then, do you really need to defend the argument?
ABOUT WILMOTT

PW by JB

Wilmott.com has been "Serving the Quantitative Finance Community" since 2001. Continued...


Twitter LinkedIn Instagram

JOBS BOARD

JOBS BOARD

Looking for a quant job, risk, algo trading,...? Browse jobs here...


GZIP: On