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Platonic Ideals - A Symposium on Truth, Beauty, Love and Math

December 6th, 2011, 7:07 pm

For your further convenience:SophistStatesmanand some helpful comments from your beloved Monarch Notes on Philosophy by Stanford:Does Plato change his mind about forms?"This way of reading Plato's dialogues does not presuppose that he never changes his mind about anything?that whatever any of his main interlocutors uphold in one dialogue will continue to be presupposed or affirmed elsewhere without alteration. It is, in fact, a difficult and delicate matter to determine, on the basis of our reading of the dialogues, whether Plato means to modify or reject in one dialogue what he has his main interlocutor affirm in some other. One of the most intriguing and controversial questions about his treatment of the forms, for example, is whether he concedes that his conception of those abstract entities is vulnerable to criticism; and, if so, whether he revises some of the assumptions he had been making about them, or develops a more elaborate picture of them that allows him to respond to that criticism. In Parmenides, the principal interlocutor (not Socrates?he is here portrayed as a promising, young philosopher in need of further training?but rather the pre-Socratic from Elea who gives the dialogue its name: Parmenides) subjects the forms to withering criticism, and then consents to conduct an inquiry into the nature of oneness that has no overt connection to his critique of the forms. Does the discussion of oneness (a baffling series of contradictions?or at any rate, propositions that seem, on the surface, to be contradictions) in some way help address the problems raised about forms? That is one way of reading the dialogue. And if we do read it in this way, does that show that Plato has changed his mind about some of the ideas about forms he inserted into earlier dialogues? Can we find dialogues in which we encounter a ?new theory of forms??that is, a way of thinking of forms that carefully steers clear of the assumptions about forms that led to Parmenides' critique? It is not easy to say. But we cannot even raise this as an issue worth pondering unless we presuppose that behind the dialogues there stands a single mind that is using these writings as a way of hitting upon the truth, and of bringing that truth to the attention of others. If we find Timaeus (the principal interlocutor of the dialogue named after him) and the Eleatic visitor of the Sophist and Statesman talking about forms in a way that is entirely consistent with the way Socrates talks about forms in Phaedo and Republic, then there is only one reasonable explanation for that consistency: Plato believes that their way of talking about forms is correct, or is at least strongly supported by powerful considerations. If, on the other hand, we find that Timaeus or the Eleatic visitor talks about forms in a way that does not harmonize with the way Socrates conceives of those abstract objects, in the dialogues that assign him a central role as director of the conversation, then the most plausible explanation for these discrepancies is that Plato has changed his mind about the nature of these entities. It would be implausible to suppose that Plato himself had no convictions about forms, and merely wants to give his readers mental exercise by composing dialogues in which different leading characters talk about these objects in discordant ways."Plato - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy Now he has his work cut out for him - wrestling with the snakes of my mind!
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Platonic Ideals - A Symposium on Truth, Beauty, Love and Math

December 6th, 2011, 7:13 pm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/ ... mlQuoteSan Diego police say a boy throwing rocks at vehicles was struck in the abdomen by a crossbow bolt fired by a passenger in small sport utility vehicle.http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-573 ... uoteCOLTON, California - Police say a naked, 300-pound bodybuilder savagely beat a Southern California couple at their home, leaving them in critical condition.
 
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Platonic Ideals - A Symposium on Truth, Beauty, Love and Math

December 6th, 2011, 7:16 pm

Clearly the attention is wandering already...this must be junior high.
 
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December 6th, 2011, 7:18 pm

i think that the wife clearly loved her husband as she took on 300lb roid-crazed bodybuilder.the crossbow story is about beauty.
 
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December 6th, 2011, 7:20 pm

Oh I see - these are like mini-case studies from the real world - very nice!
 
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Platonic Ideals - A Symposium on Truth, Beauty, Love and Math

December 6th, 2011, 8:05 pm

BTW - I have been looking carefully at that first picture and it is very hard to tell, but I think this is the right answer.
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December 6th, 2011, 9:12 pm

Even your words about Plato's words are a derivative, perhaps a blunt and clumsy one at that.Plato's works are originally written in Greek, hence talking about Plato's "original words" doesn't mean a lot unless you have a fairly heftyconcordance handy. There is also a major difference between the anglo analytic schools (who tend to think Plato was fairly literal in his views)and many of the continental thinkers who ascribe a more ironic cast to his views.Most of my english translations are from the Straussians and I usually use a fairly hefty concordance when the going gets thick. Focus PhilosophicalLibrary has some different spins on it, though I think some of their take a little wingy.Since I am a Thomist Aristotelian, I usually get at the forms by neo Platonic participation in them through Plotinus, and a Philosophy of Art and Beauty whichdoesn't rely so much on the unreconstituted forms per se.Also, I view Plato's dialogues as primarily political in nature, using literary techniques to disguise his true views.Your essay assignment is amusing, but I usually only write these days in exchange for money or sex and given my avatar, the sex is in short supply.But keep up your diligent postaholicism, 15,354 posts since August 2008 is roughly 12 posts a day, so I'm sure you'll make an impressive Plato scholarsomeday.HTa Ta For Now.
 
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Platonic Ideals - A Symposium on Truth, Beauty, Love and Math

December 6th, 2011, 9:17 pm

Oh, forgot to add, before I run, Richard McKirihan's Philosophy Before Socrates is fresh out in a 2nd edition from Hackett Publishing.I just got it on my Kindle, and its even better than the first one.Adios.
 
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December 6th, 2011, 9:47 pm

Aristotelis was another b/s master, full of nonsense. they're all idiots, i wasted so much time on them, it's unbelievable btw, i'm not saying all greeks were idiots. there were reasonable dudes like archimedes, thales etc. they would come up with good stuff in Geometry, e.g.
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December 6th, 2011, 10:47 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: HamiltonEven your words about Plato's words are a derivative, perhaps a blunt and clumsy one at that.Plato's works are originally written in Greek, hence talking about Plato's "original words" doesn't mean a lot unless you have a fairly heftyconcordance handy. There is also a major difference between the anglo analytic schools (who tend to think Plato was fairly literal in his views) and many of the continental thinkers who ascribe a more ironic cast to his views.or learn ancient Greek, the thinking man's alternative.QuoteMost of my english translations are from the Straussians and I usually use a fairly hefty concordance when the going gets thick. Focus Philosophical Library has some different spins on it, though I think some of their take a little wingy.would be useful to know what translations you have in hand besides the English ones - Urdu, Sanskrit, Hebrew, I would think for starters, but the some of the Hill Tribes of Southeast Asia may have taken a crack at The Republic some time or another...QuoteSince I am a Thomist Aristotelian, I usually get at the forms by neo Platonic participation in them through Plotinus, and a Philosophy of Art and Beauty which doesn't rely so much on the unreconstituted forms per se.I would grant you that Plato derives much of his thought from Socrates, hence we are back to the derivative philisophy problem, but to take this in the direction of Plotinus so blithely is unconscionable.QuoteAlso, I view Plato's dialogues as primarily political in nature, using literary techniques to disguise his true views.Monarch Notes surely helped you out with this observation, but why disguise his views? That is a meatier subject.QuoteYour essay assignment is amusing, but I usually only write these days in exchange for money or sex and given my avatar, the sex is in short supply.If thine avatar offends thee, pluck it out and choose another. Here is a good place to start if you are looking to do the wild thing on a regular basis.Just picked one up for my office recently; it's a good inspiration for my writing, whatever the compensation method.QuoteBut keep up your diligent postaholicism, 15,354 posts since August 2008 is roughly 12 posts a day, so I'm sure you'll make an impressive Plato scholar someday.Thanks - did zerdna help you with this comment, by chance? And actually my ADPC (Average Daily Post Count) is 12.85 (even ppauper only runs in the high 8s). But obviously this goes in cycles, some days the activity runs much higher and some days not at all. You should ask daveangel about those kinds of cycles; he is our resident expert on The Kondratieff Wave...
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Platonic Ideals - A Symposium on Truth, Beauty, Love and Math

December 6th, 2011, 11:02 pm

Just mulling over the avatar question; maybe I will change mine again, something more like this:Then some of you would think twice before PMing me with your male fantasies.
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Hamilton
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December 7th, 2011, 12:33 am

or learn ancient Greek, the thinking man's alternative.That would be Attic Greek, I'm afraid.
 
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December 7th, 2011, 12:37 am

[L]=5. Influence]http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plotinus/#5[/L]QuotePorphyry's edition of Plotinus' Enneads preserved for posterity the works of the leading Platonic interpreter of antiquity. Through these works as well as through the writings of Porphyry himself (234 ? c. 305 C.E.) and Iamblichus (c. 245?325 C.E.), Plotinus shaped the entire subsequent history of philosophy. Until well into the 19th century, Platonism was in large part understood, appropriated or rejected based on its Plotinian expression and in adumbrations of this.The theological traditions of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all, in their formative periods, looked to ancient Greek philosophy for the language and arguments with which to articulate their religious visions. For all of these, Platonism expressed the philosophy that seemed closest to their own theologies. Plotinus was the principal source for their understanding of Platonism.Through the Latin translation of Plotinus by Marsilio Ficino published in 1492, Plotinus became available to the West. The first English translation, by Thomas Taylor, appeared in the late 18th century. Plotinus was, once again, recognized as the most authoritative interpreter of Platonism. In the writings of the Italian Renaissance philosophers, the 15th and 16th century humanists John Colet, Erasmus of Rotterdam, and Thomas More, the 17th century Cambridge Platonists, and German idealists, especially Hegel, Plotinus' thought was the (sometimes unacknowledged) basis for opposition to the competing and increasingly influential tradition of scientific philosophy. This influence continued in the 20th century flowering of Christian imaginative literature in England, including the works of C.S. Lewis and Charles Williams.As well, I belong to the International Society of Neo-Platonists. You should consider joining.
 
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Platonic Ideals - A Symposium on Truth, Beauty, Love and Math

December 7th, 2011, 12:38 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: trackstarJust mulling over the avatar question; maybe I will change mine again, something more like this:Then some of you would think twice before PMing me with your male fantasies. Mine involve WD-40 and a can of shaving gel. Oh, and almonds. I forgot the almonds.
 
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Hamilton
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December 7th, 2011, 12:45 am

Monarch Notes surely helped you out with this observation, but why disguise his views?Stanley Rosen, actually.
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