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farmer
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 11:21 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ErrrbLet's say you have 2 twin brothers for the sake of argument. One of them is computer programmer, who works long hours making an OK living and finds happiness in simple things. The other brother is a DJ in a local whorehouse, who deals drugs, takes big credit from bad ass guys to buy coke and fuck hookers. They both do what makes them happy (the right choice for each of them is not black and white), but the predictable outcome of their trajectories to happiness most likely will be very different.Sounds like it is actually one person. Coke and hookers are pretty simple things. Computer programmers have been known to dj. And people with day jobs are generally the ones given more credit than they can afford.
 
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GiusCo
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 12:07 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaBerlin Wall fell in 1989, Soviet Union disappeared in 1991, Maastrich treaty, the first Union document, came around in 1993. I'd say if they were afraid so much of the cold war and iron curtain, they should have acted before cold war ended and iron curtain fell.try again... you can do better easilyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union
 
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quantmeh
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 12:09 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: ppauperQuoteOriginally posted by: quantmehchina's good at making iPhonessee the China threadQuoteOriginally posted by: ppauperEntire Apple stores being faked in Chinasome "expat" woman ratted them. i don't get it. she looks chinese herself, why would she rat her own kind is interesting? would she benefit anyhow from it? or is it simply amusement of seeing someone going down
 
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zerdna
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 12:43 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: GiusCoQuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaBerlin Wall fell in 1989, Soviet Union disappeared in 1991, Maastrich treaty, the first Union document, came around in 1993. I'd say if they were afraid so much of the cold war and iron curtain, they should have acted before cold war ended and iron curtain fell.try again... you can do better easilyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_UnionYou can do better without wiki. For example, you can state your case clearly. Like A was afraid of B and therefore on day C some event D happened. Just like i did with the timeline of the fall of the curtain and start of the European Union. There were and are known military arrangements, like NATO, that were designed to address military threats, in particular coming from the Iron Curtain. European union is an economic zone, not only it happened after the fall of the Soviet Empire, it doesn't deal with common defense arrangements. Moreover, Union in itself is not even the issue causing any kind of problems, common currency is the issue. Currency came around in 1998.
 
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platinum
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 12:46 pm

Someone asked about the original text of the treaties yesterday:Europa - Treaties of the European UnionThis page contains the following information:1) Treaty of Lisbon (2009)Purpose: to make the EU more democratic, more efficient and better able to address global problems, such as climate change, with one voice.Main changes: more power for the European Parliament, change of voting procedures in the Council, citizens' initiative, a permanent president of the European Council, a new High Representative for Foreign Affairs, a new EU diplomatic service.Read more about the Treaty of LisbonThe Treaty establishing a constitution for Europe (2004) ? with aims similar to the Lisbon Treaty ? was signed but never ratified.2)Treaty of Nice (2003)Purpose: to reform the institutions so that the EU could function efficiently after reaching 25 member countries.Main changes: methods for changing the composition of the Commission and redefining the voting system in the Council.Full text of the Treaty of Nice3) Treaty of Amsterdam (1999)Purpose: To reform the EU institutions in preparation for the arrival of future member countries.Main changes: amendment, renumbering and consolidation of EU and EEC treaties. More transparent decision-making (increased use of the co-decision voting procedure).Full text of the Treaty of Amsterdam4) Treaty on European Union - Maastricht Treaty (1993)Purpose: to prepare for European Monetary Union and introduce elements of a political union (citizenship, common foreign and internal affairs policy).Main changes: establishment of the European Union and introduction of the co-decision procedure, giving Parliament more say in decision-making. New forms of cooperation between EU governments ? for example on defence and justice and home affairs.Full text of the Maastricht Treaty5) Single European Act (1986)Purpose: to reform the institutions in preparation for Portugal and Spain's membership and speed up decision-making in preparation for the single market.Main changes: extension of qualified majority voting in the Council (making it harder for a single country to veto proposed legislation), creation of the cooperation and assent procedures, giving Parliament more influence.Full text of the Single European Act6) Merger Treaty - Brussels Treaty (1967)Purpose: to streamline the European institutions.Main changes: creation of a single Commission and a single Council to serve the then three European Communities (EEC, Euratom, ECSC). Repealed by the Treaty of Amsterdam.Full text of the Merger Treaty7) Treaties of Rome - EEC and EURATOM treaties (1958)Purpose: to set up the European Economic Community (EEC) and the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom).Main changes: extension of European integration to include general economic cooperation.Full text of the Treaties of Rome8) Treaty establishing the European Coal and Steel Community (1952)Purpose: to create interdependence in coal and steel so that one country could no longer mobilise its armed forces without others knowing. This eased distrust and tensions after WWII. The ECSC treaty expired in 2002.Full text of the Treaty establishing the European Coal and Steel CommunityWhen new countries joined the EU, the founding treaties were amended: 1973 (Denmark, Ireland, United Kingdom) 1981 (Greece) 1986 (Spain, Portugal) 1995 (Austria, Finland, Sweden) 2004 (Czech Republic, Cyprus, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia). 2007 (Bulgaria, Romania)As you see, the full text is available for each treaty on that site.
 
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platinum
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 12:53 pm

Time frame of the Euro:The name euro was officially adopted on 16 December 1995. The euro was introduced to world financial markets as an accounting currency on 1 January 1999, replacing the former European Currency Unit (ECU) at a ratio of 1:1. Euro coins and banknotes entered circulation on 1 January 2002.***It was a very long process from the decision to pursue monetary union and the actual launch of the Euro, with the The Snake and the European Monetary System coming first.The Snake"In May 1972, at the end of the Bretton Woods (adjustable-peg) system, many countries in western Europe attempted to stabilize their currencies in relation to each other's currencies. The arrangements known as the Snake in the Tunnel (or, more frequently, as the Snake), which were set up by members of the European Economic Community (EEC), one of the forerunners of the European Union, lasted until 1979. Each member agreed to limit, by market intervention, the fluctuations of its currency's exchange rate in terms of other members' currencies. The maximum divergence between the strongest and the weakest currencies was 2.25%. The agreement meant that the French government, for example, would ensure that the value of the French franc would show very limited fluctuation in terms of the Italian lira or the Netherlands guilder, but that there would be no commitment to stabilize its fluctuations against the United States dollar, the Japanese yen, or other currencies outside the agreement.This was a narrower objective than the aim of the adjustable-peg system, which was intended to stabilize the value of each currency in terms of the values of all other major currencies, but for which the amount of reserves held by governments had proved to be insufficient. It was felt that this limited objective could be achieved with the amount of reserves available to member governments."European Monetary System"The Snake came to an end in 1979 and was replaced with the European Monetary System (EMS). The exchange-rate mechanism of the EMS had the same objectives as the Snake, but the procedure for allocating intervention responsibilities among member governments was more precisely specified.The details of the EMS arrangements have been explained by Adams (1990). Membership of the EMS involved an obligation on each EMS-member government to undertake to stabilize its currency value with respect to the value of a basket of EMS-member currencies called the European Currency Unit (ECU). Each country's currency had a weight in the ECU that was related to the importance of that country's trade within the EEC. An autonomous shift in the external value of any EMS-member currency changed the value of the ECU and therefore imposed exchange-rate adjustment obligations on all members of the system. The magnitude of each of these obligations was related to the weight allocated to the currency experiencing the initial disturbance.The effects of the EMS requirements on each individual member depended upon that country's weight in the ECU. The system ensured that major members delegated to their smaller partners a greater proportion of their exchange-rate adjustment responsibilities than the less important members imposed on the dominant countries. The explanation for this lack of symmetry depends on the fact that a particular percentage shift in the external value of the currency of a major member of the EMS (with a high weight in the ECU) had a greater effect on the external value of the ECU than had the same percentage disturbance to the external value of the currency of a less important member. It therefore imposed greater exchange-rate adjustment responsibilities on the remaining members than did the same percentage shift applied to the external value of the less important currency. While each of the major members of the EMS could delegate to the remaining members a high proportion of its adjustment obligations, the same is not true for the smaller countries in the system. This burden was, however, seen by the smaller nations (including Denmark, Belgium, and Netherlands) as an acceptable price for exchange-rate stability with their main trading partners (including France and the German Federal Republic)."The Euro and its Antecedents
Last edited by platinum on July 21st, 2011, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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rmax
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 1:01 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: platinumThe euro was introduced to world financial markets as an accounting currency on 1 January 1999, replacing the former European Currency Unit (ECU) at a ratio of 1:1. I remember it well. I wrote a program to novate the trades and rebook them into EUR... The tool of choice: Excel Macros
 
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quantmeh
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 1:07 pm

 
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GiusCo
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 4:57 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaQuoteOriginally posted by: GiusCoQuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaBerlin Wall fell in 1989, Soviet Union disappeared in 1991, Maastrich treaty, the first Union document, came around in 1993. I'd say if they were afraid so much of the cold war and iron curtain, they should have acted before cold war ended and iron curtain fell.try again... you can do better easilyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_UnionYou can do better without wiki. For example, you can state your case clearly. Like A was afraid of B and therefore on day C some event D happened. Just like i did with the timeline of the fall of the curtain and start of the European Union. There were and are known military arrangements, like NATO, that were designed to address military threats, in particular coming from the Iron Curtain. European union is an economic zone, not only it happened after the fall of the Soviet Empire, it doesn't deal with common defense arrangements. Moreover, Union in itself is not even the issue causing any kind of problems, common currency is the issue. Currency came around in 1998.can't understand why you are making three continuous processes, rolled along 40-50 years after 1945, discretein addition, I stated clearly that the currency union in the 90s probably happened too fast the wiki page is a bulk of common words telling history in the making, not three random points on a cartesian diagram fallen out of the bluebut it seems we (and the folks in chief) at least agree the prognosis: better not to pull the euro toys out of the pram at this stage
 
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Anthis
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 5:17 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaGreek debt to GDP is almost double of that of Germany. Rogoff and Reinhart estimated that Greece has been in the state of default 50% of time since it's independence, more than any other european country. If there are some deep and subtle reasons, i guess someone needs to open our eyes on these subtleties. People tend to over consume when someone else is paying -- the list of examples of this behavior is endless. To me it's not subtle, maybe it is for someone else.What happened to 'due diligence'? In the old days if you wanted to borrow you had to prove you *did not* need the money...Due dilligence? When the borrowed funds were translated to contracts (infrastructure, guns, technology, whatever) for big German and French firms, why they should care? Their horizon ends at the next yearly book closure...
 
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Fermion
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 5:47 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaGreek debt to GDP is almost double of that of Germany. Rogoff and Reinhart estimated that Greece has been in the state of default 50% of time since it's independence, more than any other european country. If there are some deep and subtle reasons, i guess someone needs to open our eyes on these subtleties. People tend to over consume when someone else is paying -- the list of examples of this behavior is endless. To me it's not subtle, maybe it is for someone else.What happened to 'due diligence'? In the old days if you wanted to borrow you had to prove you *did not* need the money...'Due diligence' was outlawed to support social policy. Making people prove they can repay favors the rich.Making rich bankers prove they can repay would favor the poor. Fat chance of that!
 
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Traden4Alpha
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 5:54 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: AnthisQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaGreek debt to GDP is almost double of that of Germany. Rogoff and Reinhart estimated that Greece has been in the state of default 50% of time since it's independence, more than any other european country. If there are some deep and subtle reasons, i guess someone needs to open our eyes on these subtleties. People tend to over consume when someone else is paying -- the list of examples of this behavior is endless. To me it's not subtle, maybe it is for someone else.What happened to 'due diligence'? In the old days if you wanted to borrow you had to prove you *did not* need the money...Due dilligence? When the borrowed funds were translated to contracts (infrastructure, guns, technology, whatever) for big German and French firms, why they should care? Their horizon ends at the next yearly book closure... Indeed! Everyone had a turn at the punchbowl.Where were the prudent voters arguing that it was unsustainable? Doesn't due diligence ultimately rest on the citizen's shoulders because they are the ones that pay for it all in the end.
 
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farmer
Posts: 13462
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 5:58 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaEveryone had a turn at the punchbowl.Ahem... Fermion? And so far as Marsden, a dog ate his share...
 
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Fermion
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 5:59 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: AnthisQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaGreek debt to GDP is almost double of that of Germany. Rogoff and Reinhart estimated that Greece has been in the state of default 50% of time since it's independence, more than any other european country. If there are some deep and subtle reasons, i guess someone needs to open our eyes on these subtleties. People tend to over consume when someone else is paying -- the list of examples of this behavior is endless. To me it's not subtle, maybe it is for someone else.What happened to 'due diligence'? In the old days if you wanted to borrow you had to prove you *did not* need the money...Due dilligence? When the borrowed funds were translated to contracts (infrastructure, guns, technology, whatever) for big German and French firms, why they should care? Their horizon ends at the next yearly book closure... Indeed! Everyone had a turn at the punchbowl.Where were the prudent voters arguing that it was unsustainable? Doesn't due diligence ultimately rest on the citizen's shoulders because they are the ones that pay for it all in the end.It rests on them being adequately and accurately informed. Murdoch, among others, prevented that.
 
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Errrb
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Actual consequences of a U.S. / Greece bankruptcies?

July 22nd, 2011, 6:06 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Fermion QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: AnthisQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaGreek debt to GDP is almost double of that of Germany. Rogoff and Reinhart estimated that Greece has been in the state of default 50% of time since it's independence, more than any other european country. If there are some deep and subtle reasons, i guess someone needs to open our eyes on these subtleties. People tend to over consume when someone else is paying -- the list of examples of this behavior is endless. To me it's not subtle, maybe it is for someone else.What happened to 'due diligence'? In the old days if you wanted to borrow you had to prove you *did not* need the money...Due dilligence? When the borrowed funds were translated to contracts (infrastructure, guns, technology, whatever) for big German and French firms, why they should care? Their horizon ends at the next yearly book closure... Indeed! Everyone had a turn at the punchbowl.Where were the prudent voters arguing that it was unsustainable? Doesn't due diligence ultimately rest on the citizen's shoulders because they are the ones that pay for it all in the end.It rests on them being adequately and accurately informed. Murdoch, among others, prevented that.It never ceases to fascinate me what kind of muddy shit you have in your head, mr. Fermion. How for fuck sake Murdoch is responsible for all of this?
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