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farmer
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norway's thing

July 24th, 2011, 5:26 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaI don't think it was easy to take him down. I don't know it, but i suspect he had always a loaded second gun, probably a handgun, when he reloaded his main gun. As long as he staid in an open space, an attack would require several people each willing to lose their lives and able to act together.If his main gun were a low-caliber semi-automatic rifle, one athletic person could take him down and have probably at least an 85% chance of surviving. I don't know if it was, and I don't particularly care.
 
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trackstar
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norway's thing

July 24th, 2011, 5:48 pm

From what I have read, he had an M16 (or similar) and a shotgun.He surrendered to police because he ran out of ammo.Not sure what the rules there would be in terms of use of force.I believe it changes quickly here, depending on whether officers are down or not.CM: I was proposing the military framework as a way to analyze how we can be trained to overcome the natural instinct to run away from danger. If you don't want to go so far as that, you could also consider Firemen and Emergency Medical Technicians too. They are heading into the burning building/bomb site/disaster zone as others are running out.
Last edited by trackstar on July 23rd, 2011, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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CrashedMint
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norway's thing

July 24th, 2011, 5:49 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerQuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaI don't think it was easy to take him down. I don't know it, but i suspect he had always a loaded second gun, probably a handgun, when he reloaded his main gun. As long as he staid in an open space, an attack would require several people each willing to lose their lives and able to act together.If his main gun were a low-caliber semi-automatic rifle, one athletic person could take him down and have probably at least an 85% chance of surviving. I don't know if it was, and I don't particularly care.the same strong, sporty, athletic person could also just run away real fast thereby increasing his survival chance from 85 to +-100. I agree that from a group perspective it's better to charge at him, but from an individual perspective the LAST thing you will want to do is get close to a armed mass-murdered in military gear how just shot a two-digit number of people. how do you know that he isn't trained in close combat too? how do you know he doesn't wear a bomb? how do you know he doesn't have a pal sitting around in some tree with a rifle?
 
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quantmeh
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norway's thing

July 24th, 2011, 6:10 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CrashedMintI agree that from a group perspective it's better to charge at him, but from an individual perspective the LAST thing you will want to do is get close to a armed mass-murdered in military gear how just shot a two-digit number of peoplethat's what they teach kids in US. never resist, surrender, hide, run, call police, wait, comply with demands, don't be a hero etc.well, at least, in US they realize that they raise kids like this, and make sure that there's a police presence when having 600 people convention. i really don't understand why there wasn't a police team present. Europe seems to have a false sense of security
 
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Anthis
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Joined: October 22nd, 2001, 10:06 am

norway's thing

July 24th, 2011, 7:48 pm

I had the impression that in Norway there is obligatory conscription of males, thus, people there have some familiarity with weapons, and this wasnt some sort of teenage party.
 
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Anthis
Posts: 4313
Joined: October 22nd, 2001, 10:06 am

norway's thing

July 24th, 2011, 8:00 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CrashedMintQuoteOriginally posted by: farmerQuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaI don't think it was easy to take him down. I don't know it, but i suspect he had always a loaded second gun, probably a handgun, when he reloaded his main gun. As long as he staid in an open space, an attack would require several people each willing to lose their lives and able to act together.If his main gun were a low-caliber semi-automatic rifle, one athletic person could take him down and have probably at least an 85% chance of surviving. I don't know if it was, and I don't particularly care.the same strong, sporty, athletic person could also just run away real fast thereby increasing his survival chance from 85 to +-100. I agree that from a group perspective it's better to charge at him, but from an individual perspective the LAST thing you will want to do is get close to a armed mass-murdered in military gear how just shot a two-digit number of people. how do you know that he isn't trained in close combat too? how do you know he doesn't wear a bomb? how do you know he doesn't have a pal sitting around in some tree with a rifle?You dont know, its irrelevant too, in such situations, you have less than one second available to decide who determines your fate, you or him?
 
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Fermion
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Joined: November 14th, 2002, 8:50 pm

norway's thing

July 24th, 2011, 10:36 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: ppaupera tragedyThat a friend of yours was arrested for killing so many lefties and muslim-lovers?
 
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ppauper
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Joined: November 15th, 2001, 1:29 pm

norway's thing

July 25th, 2011, 11:43 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: ppaupera tragedyThat a friend of yours was arrested for killing so many lefties and muslim-lovers?that people were killedQuoteBreivik writes in his manifesto that he is not religious, has doubts about God's existence, does not pray, but does assert the primacy of Europe's "Christian culture" as well as his own pagan Nordic culture.Breivik instead hails Charles Darwin, whose evolutionary theories stand in contrast to the claims of the Bible, and affirms: "As for the Church and science, it is essential that science takes an undisputed precedence over biblical teachings. Europe has always been the cradle of science, and it must always continue to be that way. Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I'm not an excessively religious man. I am first and foremost a man of logic."Quote
 
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ppauper
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norway's thing

July 25th, 2011, 11:45 pm

Norway suspect: Serbia bombing 'tipped the scales'
 
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Cuchulainn
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norway's thing

July 26th, 2011, 5:30 am

QuoteEurope has always been the cradle of science, Yes and no.Depends on the time scale on which you measure it. Europe went through 1000 years of Darkness. The Chinese discovered printing 3000 BC.
Last edited by Cuchulainn on July 25th, 2011, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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exneratunrisk
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norway's thing

July 26th, 2011, 10:47 am

Why do innocent people go unresisting to the slaughter? Because they are innocent. Why could 1000 jews be murdered by 5 Nazi henchmen at once in a crowd at the wall? Because they were innocent. The-inglorious-bastards is fiction.In the heat of the right ....
Last edited by exneratunrisk on July 25th, 2011, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Traden4Alpha
Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

norway's thing

July 26th, 2011, 11:09 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteEurope has always been the cradle of science, Yes and no.Depends on the time scale on which you measure it. Europe went through 1000 years of Darkness. The Chinese discovered printing 3000 BC.Indeed! And Africa and the Middle East gave us our al'gebra and al'gorithms.There's an ebb and flow of history as cultures turn from outward to inward, from open-minded to fundamentalist, from peaceful to violent, and back again.
 
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ppauper
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norway's thing

July 26th, 2011, 11:12 am

I saw somewhere that if convicted, the guy will only get 21 years max.
 
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quantmeh
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norway's thing

July 26th, 2011, 11:42 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: exneratunriskWhy do innocent people go unresisting to the slaughter?because they're trained so, and maybe because it is the most optimal strategy. this has to be analyzed from game-theory point of view.it seems that unless you "program" people to act violently against the violence, their default behavior is to avoid the violence
 
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exneratunrisk
Posts: 3559
Joined: April 20th, 2004, 12:25 pm

norway's thing

July 26th, 2011, 12:07 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: quantmehQuoteOriginally posted by: exneratunriskWhy do innocent people go unresisting to the slaughter?because they're trained so, and maybe because it is the most optimal strategy. this has to be analyzed from game-theory point of view.it seems that unless you "program" people to act violently against the violence, their default behavior is to avoid the violenceI don't think so. it is like kind of the complementary of the Tragedy of the CommonsWe "all" cheat a little, thinking that others will pay ... (they think there will be innocent ..)It is much too complex for game theory?
Last edited by exneratunrisk on July 25th, 2011, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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