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quantmeh
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norway's thing

July 26th, 2011, 12:43 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: exneratunriskIt is much too complex for game theory?maybe, maybe not. let's say the gunner can kill at rate of 100*exp(-t), if everyone's running away. if you attack the gunner, then P=1/N for you to get killed, where N - number of other people which would join you. the probability for other people to join is P=exp(c+N)/(1+exp(c+N))i think that by impacting C in this equation, through education or manly upbringing, you can make the world a better place. whenever someone attacks us, we'll all jump on the guy and kill him
 
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Herd
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norway's thing

July 31st, 2011, 10:52 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: quantmehwhat puzzles me in this kind of situation is this: there were 600 people against one gunman. if all of them attacked this guy, he wouldn't have killed 90 people. obviously there'd be a lot of dead people, but far less than 90. what makes us run away then? it is clearly better for overall good to attack the gunman, yet something makes us try to run and save our own lives. in terms of utility function then we don't reach global minimum, and as a whole we're worse off when running away.i asked myself the same thing in the context of extermination camps during ww2.and "similar" situiations in the natural world:
Last edited by Herd on July 31st, 2011, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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exneratunrisk
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norway's thing

August 1st, 2011, 8:13 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: outrunMy wife has just read HhhH by Laurent Binet, a book about nazi leader Heydrich.It tells (in subplots, amongst many things) about the extreme sadistic nature of the Nazi's. I think you really can't truly comprehend how evil the Nazi's were. Why was that? The propaganda that made that possible was to systematically "de-humanize" groups of victims: label them as "different" by making them wear stars, isolating them from society. Once those people were made seen as less-human by this mechanism, the aggression can escalate because it's no longer agains fellow humans. I was watching a documentary yesterday: Chimps do the exact same thing (de-chimp members of other tribes and kill them). The analogy with the current labeling of individuals with their ancestry and religion is exactly the same thing that's going on.From Wikipedia:"Dehumanization is to make somebody less human by taking away his or her individuality, the creative and interesting aspects of his or her personality, or his or her compassion and sensitivity towards others.[citation needed] Dehumanization may be directed by an organization (such as a state) or may be the composite of individual sentiments and actions, as with some types of de facto racism. State-organized dehumanization has been directed against perceived racial or ethnic groups, nationalities (or "foreigners" in general), religious groups, genders, minorities of various sexual orientations (e.g., homosexuals), disabled people as a class, economic (e.g., the homeless) and social classes, and many other groups."Everybody should learn to recognize this mechanism, in society, at work,..Indeed, the fascist ideology is very simple: the ideology of the pointedly vertical commons and the scapegoat ideology. AB B's scapegoat ideology (1500 pages manifesto pasted from programs of the extreme right) focusses on marxists/multicultural .../feminists -- the "political correct", as he summarizes the human scum. The extreme right here in Europe, in a hysteric calm down campaign, IMO, want "us" now, cynically, to be all political correct.....
 
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Herd
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norway's thing

August 1st, 2011, 12:07 pm

outrun: what you said has nothing to do with the question debated here.when a large group of unarmed/less armed is attacked by a smaller group of armed, it sometimes pay to attack in number.but somehow this very rarely happen.revolutions are a bit like that too: large group of oppressed attacking small group of privileged.
 
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Herd
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norway's thing

August 1st, 2011, 12:59 pm

sorry i was not clear: in extermination camps it was not a question of commiting suicide in order to save two other people. because all of the people there were going for a sure death.whereas some kind of rebellion (all people running at guards or something) could have offered a chance of surviving.Such rebellions have happened, but very very few times indeed.(Note: depending on the groups of people that were coming, some had no idea what was coming, but some groups knew.Also, one of the tricks used by the guards to prevent rebellion was to make people undress as it makes the idea of rebellion more difficult.)Now as I am writing this I remember another rebellion, but that didn t happen in an extermination camp: the jewish ghetto uprising in Varsaw. I can t remember exactly what happened though I d have to search....
 
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quantmeh
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norway's thing

August 1st, 2011, 1:26 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Herdand "similar" situiations in the natural world: buffaloes could easily kill all lions
 
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Herd
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norway's thing

August 1st, 2011, 1:49 pm

I suppose for the group rebellion to happen, there needs to be coordination or leadership:either everybody attacks (without having discussed it before), or a leader talks to everybody in a convincing and motivating way and organise the rebellion.
 
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Herd
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norway's thing

August 1st, 2011, 1:53 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: quantmehQuoteOriginally posted by: Herdand "similar" situiations in the natural world: buffaloes could easily kill all lionsthe hyenas vs lion is interesting too: when the ratio is greater than 5 hyenas (if i remember well) for one lion then the hyenas are better.These hyenas are disgusting animals but they do know how to work as a team.
 
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Herd
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norway's thing

August 1st, 2011, 2:00 pm

there is also the bush/blair strategy: make your people believe that they are about to be attacked (tell them lies about WMD's and 45 minutes stuff), and that a "preentive" attack is necessary; and invade and kill hundreds of thousands of people who never did anything to you.You can even get reelected with that strategy.
 
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quantmeh
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norway's thing

August 1st, 2011, 2:03 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: outrunyet noone dared to contradict a "leader" that kept saying "don't worry, it's normal, dont be such scary whimp" after 9/11, when i hear the alarm, I'm out of the building no matter what anybody else says
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