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CrashedMint
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 14th, 2012, 9:39 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionArguing over the morality of who wins or loses in the financial war between Germany and Greece is like arguing over the morality of who won in the US war on Iraq. In the latter case it was the military contractors and their political lackeys. They won whatever you think of the outcome. In the former, its the banksters and their political lackeys. They win whatever happens to Greece.it's a weird kind of "financial war".Round 1: Greece overspends on literally everything then fakes paperwork to appear frugal.Round 2: Germany really, really wants them in the EU so even though they know they ignore the faked paperwork.Round 3: Greece is so bankrupt they can't hide it no more. Help!Round 4: Germany gives then a gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Round 5: Greece burns though the money, fails every single condition, insults Germans as nazis, then demands more money.Round 6: Germany gives them another gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Round 7: Greece burns though the money, fails every single condition, insults Germans as nazis, then demands more money.Round 8: Germany gives them another gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Round 9: Greece burns though the money, fails every single condition, insults Germans as nazis, then demands more money.Round 10: Germany gives them another gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.
 
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Traden4Alpha
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 14th, 2012, 9:58 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CrashedMintQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionArguing over the morality of who wins or loses in the financial war between Germany and Greece is like arguing over the morality of who won in the US war on Iraq. In the latter case it was the military contractors and their political lackeys. They won whatever you think of the outcome. In the former, its the banksters and their political lackeys. They win whatever happens to Greece.it's a weird kind of "financial war".Round 1: Greece overspends on literally everything then fakes paperwork to appear frugal.Round 2: Germany really, really wants them in the EU so even though they know they ignore the faked paperwork.Round 3: Greece is so bankrupt they can't hide it no more. Help!Round 4: Germany gives then a gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Round 5: Greece burns though the money, fails every single condition, insults Germans as nazis, then demands more money.Round 6: Germany gives them another gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Round 7: Greece burns though the money, fails every single condition, insults Germans as nazis, then demands more money.Round 8: Germany gives them another gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Round 9: Greece burns though the money, fails every single condition, insults Germans as nazis, then demands more money.Round 10: Germany gives them another gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.LOL! That's the best description of the situation I've ever heard.
 
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Fermion
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 14th, 2012, 10:03 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CrashedMintQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionArguing over the morality of who wins or loses in the financial war between Germany and Greece is like arguing over the morality of who won in the US war on Iraq. In the latter case it was the military contractors and their political lackeys. They won whatever you think of the outcome. In the former, its the banksters and their political lackeys. They win whatever happens to Greece.it's a weird kind of "financial war".Round 1: Greece overspends on literally everything then fakes paperwork to appear frugal.Round 2: Germany really, really wants them in the EU so even though they know they ignore the faked paperwork.Round 3: Greece is so bankrupt they can't hide it no more. Help!Round 4: Germany gives then a gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Round 5: Greece burns though the money, fails every single condition, insults Germans as nazis, then demands more money.Round 6: Germany gives them another gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Round 7: Greece burns though the money, fails every single condition, insults Germans as nazis, then demands more money.Round 8: Germany gives them another gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Round 9: Greece burns though the money, fails every single condition, insults Germans as nazis, then demands more money.Round 10: Germany gives them another gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Yes, but given the austerity imposed on the vast majority of the Greek population, shouldn't you ask where the gazillions are going?
 
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CrashedMint
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 14th, 2012, 10:18 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: CrashedMintQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionArguing over the morality of who wins or loses in the financial war between Germany and Greece is like arguing over the morality of who won in the US war on Iraq. In the latter case it was the military contractors and their political lackeys. They won whatever you think of the outcome. In the former, its the banksters and their political lackeys. They win whatever happens to Greece.it's a weird kind of "financial war".Round 1: Greece overspends on literally everything then fakes paperwork to appear frugal.Round 2: Germany really, really wants them in the EU so even though they know they ignore the faked paperwork.Round 3: Greece is so bankrupt they can't hide it no more. Help!Round 4: Germany gives then a gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Round 5: Greece burns though the money, fails every single condition, insults Germans as nazis, then demands more money.Round 6: Germany gives them another gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Round 7: Greece burns though the money, fails every single condition, insults Germans as nazis, then demands more money.Round 8: Germany gives them another gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Round 9: Greece burns though the money, fails every single condition, insults Germans as nazis, then demands more money.Round 10: Germany gives them another gazillion of euros, but with a few conditions.Yes, but given the austerity imposed on the vast majority of the Greek population, shouldn't you ask where the gazillions are going?well, it's weird and I am not informed enough to really understand the issue. i do understand that it sucks for the people of Greece. They just lived their life and suddenly they are supposed to take a 1/3 pay cut. Then another one. I can understand the anger, but I think it's misdirected, because they really need Germany and people are growing tired of helping Greece and being hated by Greece.
 
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farmer
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 14th, 2012, 10:24 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CrashedMinti do understand that it sucks for the people of Greece. They just lived their lifeLike cows in a field?
 
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CrashedMint
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 14th, 2012, 10:30 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerQuoteOriginally posted by: CrashedMinti do understand that it sucks for the people of Greece. They just lived their lifeLike cows in a field?imagine your an average guy minding his own business and suddenly the government you work for says: "Ummm, ja, well we're bankrupt so starting next week you're gonna live with a 30% pay cut."
 
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farmer
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 14th, 2012, 10:31 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CrashedMintimagine your an average guy minding his own business and suddenly the government you work for says: "Ummm, ja, well we're bankrupt so starting next week you're gonna live with a 30% pay cut."You left out the first part where the average guy votes for Barack Obama.
 
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Fermion
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 14th, 2012, 11:00 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionArguing over the morality of who wins or loses in the financial war between Germany and Greece is like arguing over the morality of who won in the US war on Iraq. In the latter case it was the military contractors and their political lackeys. They won whatever you think of the outcome. In the former, its the banksters and their political lackeys. They win whatever happens to Greece.Given the alleged victory by the banksters and their political lackeys, would you advocate that governments borrow money on the world markets? And would you recommend that banking regulators forbid banks from lending to governments such as Greece's?You know perfectly well I've got nothing against banking per se, or against credit and that my point is about capitalist corruption at governmental level in both Greece and Germany (and other European governments).
 
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EscapeArtist999
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 14th, 2012, 11:26 pm

First of all that average Greek guy was overpaid and overspending for a long time. The only safe and reliable way to lose weight if you are fat is to diet and excercise - Mitt Romney called for this in an America where through lax credit and crazy trade deficits got really fat (in terms of debt and actual fat) - Mitt wants people to work and sweat their way out of their overconsumption. Barack wants the average guy to stay fat and for that matter docile. And Fermion, if the average schmo can't be bothered to educate himself about investments, etc beyond reading popular books written by Greg smith, rich dad poor dad guy, etc - they deserve fleeced by the banksters. Mitt wants a strong American where people ask not what their country can do for them, but what they can do for their country. Instead they've voted for Barack Jesus Obama to run after the Koch brothers money so that he can fund their retirement. A retirement they could afford thselves if they weren't running after iPads, giant tvs, bling, pimping out their houses. Quote unquote living the good life. Anyway, the Greeks have been put on diet, are upset about it, and keep breaking the diet because Germany will slip them the cookie jar... And maybe it's good for Germany, Greek trouble, weak euro, makes that German look competitive...
 
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Traden4Alpha
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 14th, 2012, 11:58 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionArguing over the morality of who wins or loses in the financial war between Germany and Greece is like arguing over the morality of who won in the US war on Iraq. In the latter case it was the military contractors and their political lackeys. They won whatever you think of the outcome. In the former, its the banksters and their political lackeys. They win whatever happens to Greece.Given the alleged victory by the banksters and their political lackeys, would you advocate that governments borrow money on the world markets? And would you recommend that banking regulators forbid banks from lending to governments such as Greece's?You know perfectly well I've got nothing against banking per se, or against credit and that my point is about capitalist corruption at governmental level in both Greece and Germany (and other European governments).I still wonder whether you advocate that governments like Greece's borrows money on the world markets? And would you recommend that banking regulators forbid banks from lending to governments such as Greece's?We both may can blame corrupt politicians in Greece et al for overborrowing -- knowing they would get to live the good life regardless of the consequences of their government's long-term inability to repay the loans. And we both may blame corrupt politicians and bankers in Germany et al for overlending -- knowing they would get to live the good life regardless of the consequences of the borrower's inability to repay the loans. Yet what is the NON-corrupt decision making process for saying yes/no to lending to Greece?It would seem that the easiest way to avoid the capitalist corruption of the moneylenders and their political lackeys is for voters to require politicians to balance the budget in all economic times except perhaps the worst.
 
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Fermion
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 15th, 2012, 1:27 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionArguing over the morality of who wins or loses in the financial war between Germany and Greece is like arguing over the morality of who won in the US war on Iraq. In the latter case it was the military contractors and their political lackeys. They won whatever you think of the outcome. In the former, its the banksters and their political lackeys. They win whatever happens to Greece.Given the alleged victory by the banksters and their political lackeys, would you advocate that governments borrow money on the world markets? And would you recommend that banking regulators forbid banks from lending to governments such as Greece's?You know perfectly well I've got nothing against banking per se, or against credit and that my point is about capitalist corruption at governmental level in both Greece and Germany (and other European governments).I still wonder whether you advocate that governments like Greece's borrows money on the world markets? And would you recommend that banking regulators forbid banks from lending to governments such as Greece's?We both may can blame corrupt politicians in Greece et al for overborrowing -- knowing they would get to live the good life regardless of the consequences of their government's long-term inability to repay the loans. And we both may blame corrupt politicians and bankers in Germany et al for overlending -- knowing they would get to live the good life regardless of the consequences of the borrower's inability to repay the loans.Not to mention bribes paid by the banksters and political complicity in tax evasion.QuoteYet what is the NON-corrupt decision making process for saying yes/no to lending to Greece?It would seem that the easiest way to avoid the capitalist corruption of the moneylenders and their political lackeys is for voters to require politicians to balance the budget in all economic times except perhaps the worst.That doesn't address corruption at all. It just means governments will rob Peter to pay Paul.The first thing to do is to elect governments which are committed to transparency and regulation in banking, lobbying and politicians' finances, since any other progress requires an educated electorate. The second thing to do is to elect a government committed to rooting out corruption and fraud and actually doing it.
 
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zerdna
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 15th, 2012, 6:07 am

Painfully obvious thing is that only a small portion of the so called help is going inito the hands of Greeks in any shape or form. 80% went to pay the banks. Now ECB bought all new Greek bonds from the banks and gave them cash. Basically, Greeks are still on the hook and will be, but now instead of the banks, taxpayers are on the hook in Europe instead of their banks. It's the same thing they did in US. The same thing they did in Ireland in the aftermath of real estate bubble -- taxpayers assumed banks debt. This corrupt shit has nothing to do with capitalism, you might as well call it communist capitalism. It is justified by deposit insurance, that needs to be dropped as possibly should be fractional banking.
 
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EscapeArtist999
Posts: 1620
Joined: May 20th, 2009, 2:49 pm

How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 15th, 2012, 7:46 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionArguing over the morality of who wins or loses in the financial war between Germany and Greece is like arguing over the morality of who won in the US war on Iraq. In the latter case it was the military contractors and their political lackeys. They won whatever you think of the outcome. In the former, its the banksters and their political lackeys. They win whatever happens to Greece.Given the alleged victory by the banksters and their political lackeys, would you advocate that governments borrow money on the world markets? And would you recommend that banking regulators forbid banks from lending to governments such as Greece's?You know perfectly well I've got nothing against banking per se, or against credit and that my point is about capitalist corruption at governmental level in both Greece and Germany (and other European governments).I still wonder whether you advocate that governments like Greece's borrows money on the world markets? And would you recommend that banking regulators forbid banks from lending to governments such as Greece's?We both may can blame corrupt politicians in Greece et al for overborrowing -- knowing they would get to live the good life regardless of the consequences of their government's long-term inability to repay the loans. And we both may blame corrupt politicians and bankers in Germany et al for overlending -- knowing they would get to live the good life regardless of the consequences of the borrower's inability to repay the loans.Not to mention bribes paid by the banksters and political complicity in tax evasion.QuoteYet what is the NON-corrupt decision making process for saying yes/no to lending to Greece?It would seem that the easiest way to avoid the capitalist corruption of the moneylenders and their political lackeys is for voters to require politicians to balance the budget in all economic times except perhaps the worst.That doesn't address corruption at all. It just means governments will rob Peter to pay Paul.The first thing to do is to elect governments which are committed to transparency and regulation in banking, lobbying and politicians' finances, since any other progress requires an educated electorate. The second thing to do is to elect a government committed to rooting out corruption and fraud and actually doing it.Obama, campaign finance reform during his first term - lol.
 
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Traden4Alpha
Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 15th, 2012, 1:38 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: zerdnaPainfully obvious thing is that only a small portion of the so called help is going inito the hands of Greeks in any shape or form. 80% went to pay the banks. Now ECB bought all new Greek bonds from the banks and gave them cash. Basically, Greeks are still on the hook and will be, but now instead of the banks, taxpayers are on the hook in Europe instead of their banks. It's the same thing they did in US. The same thing they did in Ireland in the aftermath of real estate bubble -- taxpayers assumed banks debt. This corrupt shit has nothing to do with capitalism, you might as well call it communist capitalism. It is justified by deposit insurance, that needs to be dropped as possibly should be fractional banking.People seem pathologically incapable of seeing the counterfactual implications of the debts that they have incurred. Once the money is gone, they find it bitterly unfair that they should have to repay it. But if those debts had never been permitted, then those same people would never have had the houses and paychecks that they are now losing.In both Ireland, Greece, and many other places, the taxpayers lent their money to the banks, the banks lent money to the taxpayers*, the taxpayers spent that money on an improved lifestyle, and now the banks need to get their money back from the taxpayers to repay the taxpayers.* Actually, the banks gave money to large fraction of people who pay only a small fraction of the taxbase.
 
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Cuchulainn
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How Romney lost his Waterloo

November 15th, 2012, 1:54 pm

QuoteIn [...] Ireland [...] the taxpayers lent their money to the banks, the banks lent money to the taxpayers*, the taxpayers spent that money on an improved lifestyle, and now the banks need to get their money back from the taxpayers to repay the taxpayers.The exception being Anglo Irish Bank that was specifically set up for property development speculation. Most Irish people did not even know AngloIB. The objective was privatised profit but now it's 60bn socialised loss. The pressure on other banks was enormous, so they had to speculate as well.And that's the way it was. What you need to realise is that the government bailed out AngloIB, biggest error ever.
Last edited by Cuchulainn on November 14th, 2012, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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