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Paul
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 11th, 2013, 3:08 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: ppauper johnny rotten on margaret thatcherHe's as mad as a box of frogs but you've got to love him. (Although his TV adverts for butter did put my affection for him under some strain!)P
 
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Paul
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 11th, 2013, 4:09 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Fermion QuoteOriginally posted by: PaulIf you are on the left wing it helps enormously if you are a hypocrite or naive. PThat's an amazingly naive thing to say. Apart from the absurdity of the one-dimensional left/right paradigm, politicians of all shades are hypocrites. It's a necessary qualification for the job. It's difficult to think of anyone involved in politics from the last several decades who wasn't a hypocrite. About the only person who comes to mind is Che Guevara. Some people might say he was naive, but I don't think so. I think he knew full well what he was letting himself in for if things didn't work out the way he hoped. (He declared his disgust for the Stalinist regimes that Cuba depended on, abandoned a cushy job as a cabinet minister and declared his intention to liberate the whole of Latin America from US imperialism, knowing full well the grandiose enormity of the task.) Perhaps the most negative thing you could say about him was that he took honesty and integrity to the extreme limits of self sacrifice. Far from naivety, it was an almost religious pilgrimage that he embarked on. He was raised Catholic (of Irish-Argentine descent) and is worshipped like a saint by the common masses throughout Catholic Latin America.Compare him to Margaret Thatcher who is also worshipped like a saint amongst the most anti-social elements of society. She had one trick, the same trick beloved of tyrants throughout history, to hide dishonesty and cruelty behind a facade of steadfast determination and leadership in the face of an imagined enemy -- in her case the "sponger". Felix Rodriguez, the CIA agent who organized the hunt for Che in Bolivia and ordered his execution after he was captured wrote this tribute:QuoteWhen I asked him if he had any message for his family, he said, "Tell Fidel that he will soon see a triumphant revolution in America." He said it in a way that, to me, seemed to mock the Cuban dictator for abandoning him* here in the Bolivian jungle. Then Che added, "And tell my wife to get remarried and try to be happy."Then we embraced, and it was a tremendously emotional moment for me. I no longer hated him. His moment of truth had come, and he was conducting himself like a man. He was facing his death with courage and grace.*Here, Rodriguez is indulging in his own fantasy. It was the Soviet Union that ordered the communists in Bolivia to disown and betray Che.Psychological projection.P
 
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trackstar
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 11th, 2013, 4:20 pm

This reminds me of a small paradox in my own life.My paternal grandparents were quite conservative politically, always voted Republican (maybe even for Barry Goldwater - they used to joke about it anyways).However, my grandfather had a picture of Che G. in his library. The classic picture, with the full beard.I was quite young when grandfather died and I did not know who the bearded man was until high school, but I wish I could have asked him about that.Somehow a crossing of political lines there, maybe because he had been a medical student, or that strong character shown in facing death.
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Cuchulainn
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 11th, 2013, 4:33 pm

Was it this one by Jim Fitzpatrick?
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 11th, 2013, 4:34 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnWas it this one by Jim Fitzpatrick? Yes. I still have it.
 
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April 11th, 2013, 4:39 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: trackstarQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnWas it this one by Jim Fitzpatrick? Yes. I still have it.Che (as Gandhi, Ho Chi Minh,..) were influenced by supremo Michael Collins (minister of mayhem)
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 11th, 2013, 4:41 pm

Che G. was quite a loathsome individual:QuoteThe cult of Ernesto Che Guevara is an episode in the moral callousness of our time. Che was a totalitarian. He achieved nothing but disaster. Many of the early leaders of the Cuban Revolution favored a democratic or democratic-socialist direction for the new Cuba. But Che was a mainstay of the hardline pro-Soviet faction, and his faction won. Che presided over the Cuban Revolution's first firing squads. He founded Cuba's "labor camp" system--the system that was eventually employed to incarcerate gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims. To get himself killed, and to get a lot of other people killed, was central to Che's imagination. In the famous essay in which he issued his ringing call for "two, three, many Vietnams," he also spoke about martyrdom and managed to compose a number of chilling phrases: "Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine. This is what our soldiers must become ..."-- and so on. He was killed in Bolivia in 1967, leading a guerrilla movement that had failed to enlist a single Bolivian peasant. And yet he succeeded in inspiring tens of thousands of middle class Latin-Americans to exit the universities and organize guerrilla insurgencies of their own. And these insurgencies likewise accomplished nothing, except to bring about the death of hundreds of thousands, and to set back the cause of Latin-American democracy--a tragedy on the hugest scale.http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/cult ... uoteothers remember the ruthless man that executed between 156 and 550 prisoners in Cuba without trialhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/11/che-g ... oteDespite a brief interest in Gandhi, he was not a pacifist; indeed, he was a harsh, uncompromising figure who believed, with Mao, that power came out of the gun barrel. Mr. Castaneda's book includes a gripping passage about the self-serving justification Guevara made for carrying out executions within the ranks, even when he understood that the alleged offenses did not merit death.. . . Mr. Castaneda criticizes what he calls Guevara's ''tactical, simplistic and bureaucratic logic.'' He adds: ''Not too far in the future -- in early 1959 -- he held in his hands the fate of hundreds of men sentenced to death at La Cabana, and he authorized with his signature one of the most unsavory episodes of the revolution.''The new biographies also make clear that Guevara played a central role in establishing Cuba's new secret police, which set about the usual task of the revolution's devouring its own children. Mr. Castaneda reports that it was Guevara who set up Cuba's first labor camp, thereby ''establishing one of the most heinous precedents of the Cuban revolution: the confinement of dissidents, homosexuals and, later, AIDS victims.''Guevara did have his detractors, often the same people as the enemies of the New Left who saw in him not the Christlike martyr of Bolivia but a cold and calculating dictator, a proto-totalitarian in the tradition of Mao or the later Pol Pot.http://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/26/books ... .htmlQuote For Cuban exiles, Castro's takeover, in 1959, is a wound that just won't heal. In the current New Yorker, William Finnegan describes the Miami's "wormholes in time": You'll be driving along a Miami freeway in 2004, listening to Radio Mambí-that's a big Spanish-language talk station-and suddenly you'll be in Cuba, 1961. Callers will be arguing bitterly about Che Guevara's misunderstanding of the sugar industry. An old man will start telling the story of his brother's violent death, at the hands of neighborhood militants, in Santiago de Cuba. He'll describe every detail, until you can taste the day. Then he'll start sobbing. The silence around his voice will grow while he tries to go on. He has wept every night in the decades since his brother's death, he says, and he prays to God that justice will someday be done ... http://www.motherjones.com/politics/200 ... o-cigarAnd that's just quoting from Slate, The New York Times, The Huffington Post, Mother Jones, and The New Yorker -- sources not exactly critical of nor hostile toward the LHS of the L/R paradigm (its weaknesses and (over)simplifications notwithstanding), mind you. In this day and age it's just inexcusable not to know him for who he really was.
 
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April 11th, 2013, 4:42 pm

Interesting. I wish that my grandfather had done more writing.Cuch: What did you think of the movie by Neil Jordan about Michael Collins?
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 11th, 2013, 4:47 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: trackstarInteresting. I wish that my grandfather had done more writing.What did you think of the movie by Neil Jordan about Michael Collins?It was OK. My granda was a friend of MC in Frongoch prison after 1916. What is strangs is MC got out in 1918 or so but my granda 1921. He wrote a book about Frongoch.edit: Julia R. was so so in the movie. Aidan Quinn was good.
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 11th, 2013, 4:50 pm

QuoteThe cult of Ernesto Che Guevara is an episode in the moral callousness of our time. This first sentence bodes no good for the rest, what can only be waffle. Awful writing style. It does not convince an educated public. It's a form of preaching and it's cobblers.Rule #1; don't start with the conclusion. I reckon these articles have a US bias, so it's not unexpected I suppose.Let's have a deeper discussion on this if need be ... It reminds me of this style It's just awful non-nuanced, really.
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trackstar
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 11th, 2013, 4:53 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: trackstarInteresting. I wish that my grandfather had done more writing.What did you think of the movie by Neil Jordan about Michael Collins?It was OK. My granda was a friend of MC in Frongoch prison after 1916. What is strangs is MC got out in 1918 or so but my granda 1921. He wrote a book about Frongoch.I will see the MC movie again, been awhile. Maybe finally visit Ireland this summer!There is a novel too: The Death of Che Guevara by Jay Cantor.
 
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QuantCentral
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 11th, 2013, 4:57 pm

She was perhaps the greatest female politician in the last century. Who will step into her shoes this century? Mrs Clinton? Mrs Obama? Anyone?
 
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 11th, 2013, 4:58 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: QuantCentralShe was perhaps the greatest female politician in the last century. Who will step into her shoes this century? Mrs Clinton? Mrs Obama? Anyone?No she was not: these wereGolda MeirMrs. GandhiEva Perronwere towering figures.She split England in two.
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 11th, 2013, 5:02 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: QuantCentralShe was perhaps the greatest female politician in the last century. Who will step into her shoes this century? Mrs Clinton? Mrs Obama? Anyone?No she was not: these wereGolda MeirMrs. Gandhiwere towering figures.She split England in two.None of them people that I would have over for scones and tea. All pretty loathsome in someway. However I do give them credit for doing what they think is right. The problem Hitler was doing what he thought was right as well...
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