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Paul
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 12th, 2013, 1:53 pm

For the young ones here who never witnessed the 1970s, early 1980s UK, and for the senile who've forgotten, I'd like to paint a picture. Look at this man. He is Bob Crow, the modern equivalent of Arthur Scargill, the man who destroyed the mining industry and the livelihoods of many families: Imagine if he had the country by the cojones. Also imagine power cuts, reading by candlelight, rubbish in the streets because of strikes, the dead unburied because of strikes. Now add in a prawn cocktail, boil-in-the-bag cod in parsley sauce, an avocado bathtub...and voila, you have the 1970s! P
 
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Polter
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 12th, 2013, 1:55 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: PolterQuoteDespite a brief interest in Gandhi, he was not a pacifist; indeed, he was a harsh, uncompromising figure who believed, with Mao, that power came out of the gun barrel. Mr. Castaneda's book includes a gripping passage about the self-serving justification Guevara made for carrying out executions within the ranks, even when he understood that the alleged offenses did not merit death.There's lots to analyse in this stupid remark.Firstly Che never claimed to be a pacifist as he knew full well that it would take a monumental armed struggle to dislodge the US from Latin America. To the contrary he was a very successful military commander in the liberation of Cuba responsible amongst other victories for taking the key town of Santa Clara. A more accurate term than "harsh" or "uncompromising" was disciplined. He sacrificed himself to the struggle and expected everyone else who served with him to do the same. The allegation of "executions within the ranks" comes without the citation of any actual event. However, in his autobiographical "Memories of the Cuban Revolutionary War" he describes in great detail and with great humanity the difficult decisions he had to make to protect his men and turn them into an effective fighting force. I don't recall all the details, but he tells a story of one of his junior officers, when disciplining a new recruit, caused a horrible accident. He held a threatening gun to the recruit's head which then went off accidentally killing the recruit. Che was then faced with disciplining the officer for his egregiously stupid behavior in the face of outrage and potential mutiny from the other (armed) recruits who witnessed the event. I can't remember for certain, but I think he ordered the execution of the officer and may even have done it himself. How many military officers could describe making such decisions with such open-hearted candour? I am very grateful that I have never been in such a situation myself. That probably makes me, unlike Che, a coward. But I think anyone who is going to judge Che needs to tell us what they would have done in his place. And, in general, any armchair critic who likes to character assassinate those who have given their lives fighting against oppression needs to be put in their place."The true revolutionary is guided by a huge sense of love" -- Che Guevara.It would seem that certain ends justify violent means but that we disagree on which ends are right and sufficiently important to justify said means.+1 -- executions without trial, firing squads, secret police, confinement of dissidents, and labor camps aren't exactly self-defense.
 
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Fermion
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 12th, 2013, 2:14 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: PolterQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: PolterQuoteDespite a brief interest in Gandhi, he was not a pacifist; indeed, he was a harsh, uncompromising figure who believed, with Mao, that power came out of the gun barrel. Mr. Castaneda's book includes a gripping passage about the self-serving justification Guevara made for carrying out executions within the ranks, even when he understood that the alleged offenses did not merit death.There's lots to analyse in this stupid remark.Firstly Che never claimed to be a pacifist as he knew full well that it would take a monumental armed struggle to dislodge the US from Latin America. To the contrary he was a very successful military commander in the liberation of Cuba responsible amongst other victories for taking the key town of Santa Clara. A more accurate term than "harsh" or "uncompromising" was disciplined. He sacrificed himself to the struggle and expected everyone else who served with him to do the same. The allegation of "executions within the ranks" comes without the citation of any actual event. However, in his autobiographical "Memories of the Cuban Revolutionary War" he describes in great detail and with great humanity the difficult decisions he had to make to protect his men and turn them into an effective fighting force. I don't recall all the details, but he tells a story of one of his junior officers, when disciplining a new recruit, caused a horrible accident. He held a threatening gun to the recruit's head which then went off accidentally killing the recruit. Che was then faced with disciplining the officer for his egregiously stupid behavior in the face of outrage and potential mutiny from the other (armed) recruits who witnessed the event. I can't remember for certain, but I think he ordered the execution of the officer and may even have done it himself. How many military officers could describe making such decisions with such open-hearted candour? I am very grateful that I have never been in such a situation myself. That probably makes me, unlike Che, a coward. But I think anyone who is going to judge Che needs to tell us what they would have done in his place. And, in general, any armchair critic who likes to character assassinate those who have given their lives fighting against oppression needs to be put in their place."The true revolutionary is guided by a huge sense of love" -- Che Guevara.It would seem that certain ends justify violent means but that we disagree on which ends are right and sufficiently important to justify said means.+1 -- executions without trial, firing squads, secret police, confinement of dissidents, and labor camps aren't exactly self-defense.What executions without trial? Do you claim that the people's courts were not qualified to try the collaborators, torturers and murderers? Are you against the death penalty? I am, but then I have never had the responsibility of governing a country that has just thrown out a vicious dictatorship.Every country in the world detains its dissidents. In the USA they are mostly black and use marijuana. This is not to condone it but to point out the double standard.As regards labor camps, it's a general principle throughout the world, that people who are able-bodied should work if they want to benefit from work. In fact every capitalist country is a giant labor camp. Are you going to talk about that too?
 
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Cuchulainn
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 12th, 2013, 2:14 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: PolterQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: FermionQuoteOriginally posted by: PolterQuoteDespite a brief interest in Gandhi, he was not a pacifist; indeed, he was a harsh, uncompromising figure who believed, with Mao, that power came out of the gun barrel. Mr. Castaneda's book includes a gripping passage about the self-serving justification Guevara made for carrying out executions within the ranks, even when he understood that the alleged offenses did not merit death.There's lots to analyse in this stupid remark.Firstly Che never claimed to be a pacifist as he knew full well that it would take a monumental armed struggle to dislodge the US from Latin America. To the contrary he was a very successful military commander in the liberation of Cuba responsible amongst other victories for taking the key town of Santa Clara. A more accurate term than "harsh" or "uncompromising" was disciplined. He sacrificed himself to the struggle and expected everyone else who served with him to do the same. The allegation of "executions within the ranks" comes without the citation of any actual event. However, in his autobiographical "Memories of the Cuban Revolutionary War" he describes in great detail and with great humanity the difficult decisions he had to make to protect his men and turn them into an effective fighting force. I don't recall all the details, but he tells a story of one of his junior officers, when disciplining a new recruit, caused a horrible accident. He held a threatening gun to the recruit's head which then went off accidentally killing the recruit. Che was then faced with disciplining the officer for his egregiously stupid behavior in the face of outrage and potential mutiny from the other (armed) recruits who witnessed the event. I can't remember for certain, but I think he ordered the execution of the officer and may even have done it himself. How many military officers could describe making such decisions with such open-hearted candour? I am very grateful that I have never been in such a situation myself. That probably makes me, unlike Che, a coward. But I think anyone who is going to judge Che needs to tell us what they would have done in his place. And, in general, any armchair critic who likes to character assassinate those who have given their lives fighting against oppression needs to be put in their place."The true revolutionary is guided by a huge sense of love" -- Che Guevara.It would seem that certain ends justify violent means but that we disagree on which ends are right and sufficiently important to justify said means.+1 -- executions without trial, firing squads, secret police, confinement of dissidents, and labor camps aren't exactly self-defense.Why bring Irak into the discussion?
 
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Traden4Alpha
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 12th, 2013, 2:15 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: PaulFor the young ones here who never witnessed the 1970s, early 1980s UK, and for the senile who've forgotten, I'd like to paint a picture. Look at this man. He is Bob Crow, the modern equivalent of Arthur Scargill, the man who destroyed the mining industry and the livelihoods of many families: Imagine if he had the country by the cojones. Also imagine power cuts, reading by candlelight, rubbish in the streets because of strikes, the dead unburied because of strikes. Now add in a prawn cocktail, boil-in-the-bag cod in parsley sauce, an avocado bathtub...and voila, you have the 1970s! PIndeed! Trade unions are just greed dressed up in solidarity clothing.(That said, the organizations that suffer from unionized labour probably deserve their fate.)
 
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Traden4Alpha
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 12th, 2013, 2:17 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: FermionAs regards labor camps, it's a general principle throughout the world, that people who are able-bodied should work if they want to benefit from work. In fact every capitalist country is a giant labor camp. Are you going to talk about that too?I'm glad to hear you support mandatory community service for welfare recipients.
 
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Paul
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April 12th, 2013, 2:19 pm

trackstar, could you imagine staring into Bob Crow's hypnotic blue eyes, while having a candlelit dinner of prawn cocktail, drinking Blue Nun?P
 
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trackstar
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April 12th, 2013, 2:20 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Paultrackstar, could you imagine staring into Bob Crow's hypnotic blue eyes, while having a candlelit dinner of prawn cocktail, drinking Blue Nun?PI know the type and a man like that would be butter in my hands by the end of the evening. There are many ironies in life. I do prefer Château Petrus to Blue Nun...
Last edited by trackstar on April 11th, 2013, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Cuchulainn
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 12th, 2013, 2:25 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Paultrackstar, could you imagine staring into Bob Crow's hypnotic blue eyes, while having a candlelit dinner of prawn cocktail, drinking Blue Nun?PAh, Blue Nun, the favourite at 70's Student hall of residence parties and listening to Wings. I can see you are pining for the good days?
 
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April 12th, 2013, 2:27 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: trackstarQuoteOriginally posted by: Paultrackstar, could you imagine staring into Bob Crow's hypnotic blue eyes, while having a candlelit dinner of prawn cocktail, drinking Blue Nun?PI know the type and a man like that would be butter in my hands by the end of the evening. He looks fairly malleable to begin with.
 
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zerdna
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 12th, 2013, 2:27 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: trackstarQuoteOriginally posted by: Paultrackstar, could you imagine staring into Bob Crow's hypnotic blue eyes, while having a candlelit dinner of prawn cocktail, drinking Blue Nun?PI know the type and a man like that would be butter in my hands by the end of the evening. There are many ironies in life.this man looks like too much butter and whiskey in the beginning of the evening. Finally we found a man of appropriate stature and style for track, by the look of him she could make him wear speedos. I think i saw this dude when he was younger and more presentable
 
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trackstar
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 12th, 2013, 2:29 pm

You and the speedos! That is completely optional - nothing wrong with swim trunks. Or completely nude. On Martha's Vineyard, you can go to a beach near Gay Head (no, not homoerotica), and everyone is in their all-together.No one cares. Why are you so uptight about this?
Last edited by trackstar on April 11th, 2013, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Cuchulainn
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 12th, 2013, 2:33 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: PaulFor the young ones here who never witnessed the 1970s, early 1980s UK, and for the senile who've forgotten, I'd like to paint a picture. Look at this man. He is Bob Crow, the modern equivalent of Arthur Scargill, the man who destroyed the mining industry and the livelihoods of many families: Imagine if he had the country by the cojones. Also imagine power cuts, reading by candlelight, rubbish in the streets because of strikes, the dead unburied because of strikes. Now add in a prawn cocktail, boil-in-the-bag cod in parsley sauce, an avocado bathtub...and voila, you have the 1970s! PIndeed! Trade unions are just greed dressed up in solidarity clothing.(That said, the organizations that suffer from unionized labour probably deserve their fate.)In the Netherlands, Trade Unions are one of the "Social Partners". So everyone gets around the table and reaches consensus. There is something to be said for it. It is probably much better than the disruptive forces in your countries where 50% is for A and 50% is for B.
 
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Paul
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April 12th, 2013, 2:34 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: Cuchulainn QuoteOriginally posted by: Paultrackstar, could you imagine staring into Bob Crow's hypnotic blue eyes, while having a candlelit dinner of prawn cocktail, drinking Blue Nun?PAh, Blue Nun, the favourite at 70's Student hall of residence parties and listening to Wings. I can see you are pining for the good days?Yes!!! (But Heston Blumenthal did carbonate Blue Nun and tasters couldn't distinguish it from Champagne, apparently.) I am also currently styling myself on Jason King..P
 
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RIP Margaret Thatcher

April 12th, 2013, 2:35 pm

Oh, Jason King, it's coming back.
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