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Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

why are some guys left-wing?

farmer
Topic Author
Posts: 13461
Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

why are some guys left-wing?

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenWouldn't it be nice if you could just mind your own business, and not have to worry so much about what other people -- people you don't even know -- are thinking?You bet! But they are thinking about putting me in prison and levying my bank accounts and so on and so on. They are obsessed with me, and now I will go to prison if I don't report my "life changes" to them on a website!

exneratunrisk
Posts: 3559
Joined: April 20th, 2004, 12:25 pm

why are some guys left-wing?

T4A, 1. the co-evoltion and the modern management theories. To me it is preaching the dignity of slavery work thinking this creates incentive. But that will not work as long as employees do not get full autonomy to organize their optimal risk.But some will never beable to do that, consequently:2. UBI. It is a net and trampolino in one and it does not discriminate. Even a billionaire shall get it. But to make it better understood, maybe I explain how I would finance it here.To be paid to over 16 y old... and taxed (additive in the progressive tax system). EUR 10.000 per year. This would cost about EUR 40 Billion.Financing: stop 12 B counterproductive subsidies (from 18), pay 16 B less individual social aid, 4 B less pension aid, 3 B less cost of social burocracy, ... for the remaining 5 there are a lot of small positions.Some would stop working, some start their own small business, IMO, balanced. UBI only does not allow for wealth growth ...But, I don't know. It needs a real live lab test. I guess, CH will give us the show window ....
Last edited by exneratunrisk on October 13th, 2013, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Marsden
Posts: 3829
Joined: August 20th, 2001, 5:42 pm

why are some guys left-wing?

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerQuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenWouldn't it be nice if you could just mind your own business, and not have to worry so much about what other people -- people you don't even know -- are thinking?You bet! But they are thinking about putting me in prison and levying my bank accounts and so on and so on. They are obsessed with me, and now I will go to prison if I don't report my "life changes" to them on a website!So ... a bit like dealing with a private health insurance company in America?Maybe if you thought about it a little bit, "guys who are left-wing" aren't all that different from you.

farmer
Topic Author
Posts: 13461
Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

why are some guys left-wing?

QuoteOriginally posted by: MarsdenSo ... a bit like dealing with a private health insurance company in America?I wouldn't know, I don't have health insurance. Because I can't buy the policy I want, or any policy at a fair price, or get a doctor who does anything sensible, because it is all regulated crazy.The other month a deer died behind my house. There was a hatch of about 1,000 tiny nymph ticks all over my dogs. So I covered the dogs in tick poison, and the ticks went crazy and jumped onto me for like a week before I figured out what was happening, and what ticks are all about. I had lumps all over me for a few months. I thought this is either cancer, or some deep bacteria from the ticks. So I took three weeks of doxycycline - which had been prescribed for my dog at a cost of about $25 - and the lumps slowly went away.The last time I went to a doctor, he misdiagnosed me and scheduled me for surgery. I took some ibuprofen when I got home, at a few cents a pill from Walmart. I was cured 100% in 30 minutes.I also may have, or have had, cancer on my nose from surfing and skiing so much with no protection. Based on all my research, and how fast it grew after I first cut it off, it sure seemed like cancer. But I burned it off with a soldering iron, making sure to get any vessels supplying blood to the general area (stick a pen light up your nose). Amazingly, what was left seems to have gone away almost completely on its own. Cost at a doctor? Probably$1200 minimum. Probably \$6000 just to get inside the same building as a doctor over 50 who has a chance of being right about anything.
Last edited by farmer on October 14th, 2013, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

why are some guys left-wing?

exneratunrisk,1. Workers already have a great deal of autonomy to look for different jobs. But here's the nasty side effect: if you give the average person EUR 10.000 on top of their existing income (the median of EUR 18.529 in Austria), they are just going to spend it on a bigger flat, a new car, more electronics, bigger vacations, better wines, more dinners out, etc. They are going to adopt a EUR 28.529/year lifestyle and be just as trapped at work as before because the EUR 10.000 UBI is 1/3 the amount they need to be able to quit.2. I agree and do like that part of your plan! UBI does create less disincentives for work than the usual unlimited-term, no-strings-attached welfare or means-tested social benefits.Financing: The cost figure seems reasonable and I can see how it would subsume other social programs. I don't know about the economic impacts of the eliminated subsidies or "small positions". I'm a bit skeptical about eliminating social bureaucracy both because now you need a system that dispenses money to even more people than the old system and from the standpoint that governments have a hard time firing anyone. Unless you propose total elimination of the other social programs (aid to the unemployed, government pensions beyond 10.000/year, special benefits for starving families, etc.) those programs will still cover large populations and need bureaucracy to manage applications, eligibility, reviews, disbursements, etc.The bigger issue is that 10.000/year is below Austria's current poverty line and well below the post-UBI poverty line. Having made all of Austria's citizens 10.000/year wealthier, those with only 10.000/year will actually be relatively poorer.
Last edited by Traden4Alpha on October 14th, 2013, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

exneratunrisk
Posts: 3559
Joined: April 20th, 2004, 12:25 pm

why are some guys left-wing?

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4Alphaexneratunrisk,1. Workers already have a great deal of autonomy to look for different jobs. But here's the nasty side effect: if you give the average person ?10.000 on top of their existing income (the median of ?18.529 in Austria), they are just going to spend it on a bigger flat, a new car, more electronics, bigger vacations, better wines, more dinners out, etc. They are going to adopt a ?28.529/year lifestyle and be just as trapped at work as before because the ?10.000 UBI is 1/3 the amount they need to be able to quit.2. I agree and do like that part of your plan! UBI does create less disincentives for work than the usual unlimited-term, no-strings-attached welfare or means-tested social benefits.Financing: The cost figure seems reasonable and I can see how it would subsume other social programs. I don't know about the economic impacts of the eliminated subsidies or "small positions". I'm a bit skeptical about eliminating social bureaucracy both because now you need a system that dispenses money to even more people than the old system and from the standpoint that governments have a hard time firing anyone. Unless you propose total elimination of the other social programs (aid to the unemployed, government pensions beyond 10.000/year, special benefits for starving families, etc.) those programs will still cover large populations and need bureaucracy to manage applications, eligibility, reviews, disbursements, etc.The bigger issue is that 10.000/year is below Austria's current poverty line and well below the post-UBI poverty line. Having made all of Austria's citizens 10.000/year wealthier, those with only 10.000/year will actually be relatively poorer.I agree, some of the effects are unclear.Just a few clarifications: Counterproductive subsidies: burning food for energy, large (food-)industry to outperform small innovative producers, ... (you might not have such stupid upending subsidies in the USA?).UB taxed - means here: on top of 10000 it will result in 8000, on top of 50000 in 5000 (roughly).And yes, there is admin involved, but much less - we have a complicated system between country-states-districts related to subsidies and social aids (stupid for such a small country, part of the EU). Managing an additional income was much easier.

farmer
Topic Author
Posts: 13461
Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

why are some guys left-wing?

From theblaze.comQuoteIt began in the early 1970s, Horowitz explained, when he was introduced to the leader of the Black Panther Party by "a Hollywood producer." In short order, he helped raise the money to buy a white Baptist church that had been "overtaken by the inner city" in Oakland, and gave it to the Panthers for a school."I was editing the largest magazine of the left, and I recruited my bookkeeper to do the books of the school," he said slowly. "In December, 1974, Betty Van Patter disappeared, and by the time police fished her body out of San Francisco Bay five weeks later, I knew the Panthers had killed her."Horowitz has written at length about the topic, explaining how "the press made nothing of it" and how "the existence of a Murder Incorporated in the heart of the American Left is something the Left really doesn't want to know or think about. Such knowledge would refute its most cherished self-understandings and beliefs. It would undermine the sense of righteous indignation that is the crucial starting point of a progressive attitude. It would explode the myths on which the attitude depends."Horowitz proceeded to explain on the Glenn Beck Program how, in the wake of Van Patter's murder, he realized that "all my friends were a menace to me and my family, because I knew if I said I thought they killed her they would've called me a racist and a CIA agent, and the Panthers were capable of killing me."Horowitz warned that while there are horrifically violent elements to the left, like the Black Panther Party, "you should not think that the bad forces are going to appear with black hats and it'll be obvious who they are."Many, like his parents, he said, are "well-meaninged people" who will "speak with humanitarian tones," but just believe "the ends justify the means.""When Lenin set out to transform, fundamentally transform Russia, he didn?t say he was going to kill 40 million people, create famines and concentration camps called gulags," Horowitz remarked. "He said he was going to give them bread, land, and peace."Horowitz also warned that "you can?t understand what's going on" in American politics today without realizing the history behind it ? the world he was raised in."It's the same people and the same vision. Barack Obama, Valerie Jarret, who's his key advisor, and David Axelrod, who's his political strategist - all of them were born into the same communist left that I was. They grew up in it; they were trained in it; they were trained to what I call the neo-communist new left, and they've never left it."

farmer
Topic Author
Posts: 13461
Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

why are some guys left-wing?

This is a great quote showing how left-wing people view people who don't share their vain vision of themselves:Quote"The worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who disbelieve. They are the ones with whom you made a covenant, but they break their covenant every time," he said.From there, he said that the Koran "provides us with the answer" which is to "massacre them.""We must restore them to the state of humiliation imposed upon them. They should be dhimmi [second class] citizens," Al-Astal said. "This status must be imposed upon them by war. They must pay the jizya security tax while they live in our midst."