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ppauper
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 27th, 2017, 4:01 pm

That UDI is illegal. Shudda had elections first.
they had a referendum
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 27th, 2017, 4:02 pm

That UDI is illegal. Shudda had elections first.
they had a referendum
Indeed; a real one. And then all of Spain votes.
 
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ppauper
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 27th, 2017, 4:08 pm

That UDI is illegal. Shudda had elections first.
they had a referendum
Indeed; a real one. And then all of Spain votes.
you probably want the whole EU to vote on whether UK can leave
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 27th, 2017, 4:38 pm

they had a referendum
Indeed; a real one. And then all of Spain votes.
you probably want the whole EU to vote on whether UK can leave
You're going off topic.
 
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ppauper
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 27th, 2017, 4:45 pm

Indeed; a real one. And then all of Spain votes.
you probably want the whole EU to vote on whether UK can leave
You're going off topic.
when you say "And then all of Spain votes," are you saying that Spain, not the Catalans, should make the decision?
I think the catalans make the decision themselves
"Hereditary bondsmen! Know ye not
Who would be free themselves must strike the blow?
By their right arms the conquest must be wrought?
Will Gaul or Muscovite redress ye? No!
True, they may lay your proud despoilers low,
But not for you will Freedom's altars flame.
Shades of the Helots! triumph o'er thy foe!
Greece! change thy lords, thy state is still the same;
Thy glorious day is o'er, but not thine years of shame."
 
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ppauper
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 27th, 2017, 8:15 pm

 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 29th, 2017, 8:45 am

As usual, the politicians are up to their polarising tricks again.
 
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ISayMoo
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 29th, 2017, 9:43 am

Because it's trick or treat time!
 
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ppauper
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 31st, 2017, 7:31 am

in at least one poll, the anti-independence have a slight lead in the upcoming elections called by the central government after they dissolved the catalan government (why didn't the EU think of doing that with brexit?)
The poll of 1,000 people by Sigma Dos for newspaper El Mundo showed unionist parties winning 43.4 percent support and pro-independence parties 42.5 percent.
it's hard to see how the elections can be free and fair when the separatist leaders have had to flee the country for fear of arrest. And what happens if the separatists do win, does the madrid government simply dissolve the catalan government again and keep holding elections until their side wins?
 
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Paul
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 31st, 2017, 9:02 am

Referenda are always held the moment that the two sides are equally balanced. (Has anyone claimed this as a 'Law'?!)

Obviously this is far from optimal. But referenda seekers find this situation irresistible.
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 31st, 2017, 10:28 am

they had a referendum
Indeed; a real one. And then all of Spain votes.
you probably want the whole EU to vote on whether UK can leave
You need to get your facts straight:
1. The EU has a contract with UK; it does not have a contract with Catalonia.
2. Catalonia is not a country (at least, note yet).
3. Seems many Catalonians want to remain as part of Spain.

The OT is full of reasoning by analogy.
 
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ppauper
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 31st, 2017, 10:54 am

Indeed; a real one. And then all of Spain votes.
you probably want the whole EU to vote on whether UK can leave
You need to get your facts straight:
1. The EU has a contract with UK; it does not have a contract with Catalonia.
2. Catalonia is not a country (at least, note yet).
3. Seems many Catalonians want to remain as part of Spain.

The OT is full of reasoning by analogy.
if "all of spain" votes on whether catalonia can leave spain, then the whole gets to decide whether one of the parts can leave. If the whole gets to decide whether one of the parts can leave then the EU would get to decide whether the UK can leave the EU.
Many catalans want to be part of spain and may catalans want catalonia to be a country. The issue is whether more want catalonia to be a country or  to be part of spain, and if more want catalonia to a country whether spain will allow that to happen
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 31st, 2017, 12:18 pm

No. In the EU case it it redundant to ask. It's in article 50. That's the whole point Think of it as a pre-nuptial.
Not sure if Spain and Catalunya signed a pre-nuptial. Certainly not in Franco's time?
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 31st, 2017, 12:20 pm

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
 
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Traden4Alpha
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Re: Homage to Catalonia

October 31st, 2017, 1:36 pm

Should England get to vote on whether Scotland or Ireland remains/remained in the UK?

Most of the subunits of today's European countries were independent states back in ye olden days until some aristocrat(s) or a war forced a merger or acquisition.

In these more democratic times, it seems only just that various subunits might consider voting for self-government and separation from former conquerers.

(As a bit of software, the EU articles are deficient in not handling the case of a member state splitting into two or more states.)
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