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ppauper
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Joined: November 15th, 2001, 1:29 pm

should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 21st, 2015, 9:31 am

there's been a little to-do in the US because a crazy white woman identified herself as black and obtained a leadership position in the NAACP, who were none too pleased when they realized she wasn't black. The lady in question (Rachel Dolezal) said she told people she was black because she "felt" black

Why is this wrong? We are discriminating against transracial people.
Transgendered people have broken down this barrier, so why not transracial people?
If Ms Dolezal felt that she was a man in a woman's body and wished to live as a man, society would accomodate her request, so why is it different when she's a black person in a white body and wishes to live as a black person? Why are we discriminating against her ?

Rush weighed in on this earlier
Quote

"I think I?m gonna identify as skinny. That way I will not have to ever go on a diet."

 
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Traden4Alpha
Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 21st, 2015, 10:12 am

And Elizabeth Warren felt Native American, right?

---

It all depends on how one defines race in a social and legal context.

If one argues that race is defined on genetic terms -- people of different genetic compositions are functionally different -- then its a matter of DNA testing.

If one argues that race is defined on visual terms -- people treat people differently based on skin color -- then a dark-skinned Caucasian might be "blacker" than a light-skinned African.

And if one argues that race is really a socio-economic phenomena defined by parental resources -- people of different financial backgrounds experience different opportunities growing up -- then its a matter of means testing independent of DNA and skin color.
 
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ppauper
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Posts: 68451
Joined: November 15th, 2001, 1:29 pm

should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 21st, 2015, 10:33 am

Quote

Originally posted by: Traden4Alpha
And Elizabeth Warren felt Native American, right?


indeed, I'd forgotten about her, and we have a whole thread (honest injun) on just that topic.

But why the double standard?
If a guy puts on a dress and says he's a chick, we're supposed to treat him as a chick, he can use the women's crapper and some all-girls colleges will admit him
Mount Holyoke College welcomes applications for our undergraduate program from any qualified student who is female or identifies as a woman.
Radcliffe merged with Harvard and Vassar is coed, but the remaining 5 of the seven sisters all accept shemales
Barnard's Admission of Transgender Students
The women?s college becomes the last of the Seven Sisters to welcome applicants ?who consistently live and identify as women.?

 
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Traden4Alpha
Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 21st, 2015, 11:31 am

Quote

Originally posted by: ppauper
Quote

Originally posted by: Traden4Alpha
And Elizabeth Warren felt Native American, right?


indeed, I'd forgotten about her, and we have a whole thread (honest injun) on just that topic.

But why the double standard?
If a guy puts on a dress and says he's a chick, we're supposed to treat him as a chick, he can use the women's crapper and some all-girls colleges will admit him
Mount Holyoke College welcomes applications for our undergraduate program from any qualified student who is female or identifies as a woman.
Radcliffe merged with Harvard and Vassar is coed, but the remaining 5 of the seven sisters all accept shemales
Barnard's Admission of Transgender Students
The women?s college becomes the last of the Seven Sisters to welcome applicants ?who consistently live and identify as women.?

Indeed! Yet the Olympic sporting world uses genetic testing rather than self-indentification.
 
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Cuchulainn
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Location: Amsterdam
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should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 21st, 2015, 12:13 pm

Quote

Originally posted by: Traden4Alpha
And Elizabeth Warren felt Native American, right?

---

It all depends on how one defines race in a social and legal context.

If one argues that race is defined on genetic terms -- people of different genetic compositions are functionally different -- then its a matter of DNA testing.

If one argues that race is defined on visual terms -- people treat people differently based on skin color -- then a dark-skinned Caucasian might be "blacker" than a light-skinned African.

And if one argues that race is really a socio-economic phenomena defined by parental resources -- people of different financial backgrounds experience different opportunities growing up -- then its a matter of means testing independent of DNA and skin color.


And don't forget Scots-Ulster, what?
Last edited by Cuchulainn on June 20th, 2015, 10:00 pm
 
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Traden4Alpha
Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 21st, 2015, 12:32 pm

Quote

Originally posted by: Cuchulainn
Quote

Originally posted by: Traden4Alpha
And Elizabeth Warren felt Native American, right?

---

It all depends on how one defines race in a social and legal context.

If one argues that race is defined on genetic terms -- people of different genetic compositions are functionally different -- then its a matter of DNA testing.

If one argues that race is defined on visual terms -- people treat people differently based on skin color -- then a dark-skinned Caucasian might be "blacker" than a light-skinned African.

And if one argues that race is really a socio-economic phenomena defined by parental resources -- people of different financial backgrounds experience different opportunities growing up -- then its a matter of means testing independent of DNA and skin color.


And don't forget Scots-Ulster, what?
Yes, and what about wannabe Celts??!?!

There should be laws about who gets to have bonfires and who doesn't otherwise New Grange will be a mixed-race mob scene, what?

(Happy Solstice, BTW!)
 
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exneratunrisk
Posts: 3559
Joined: April 20th, 2004, 12:25 pm

should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 21st, 2015, 12:40 pm

This idea must die: race - ther's no such thing as race

There're many other ideas blocking progress in many fields: this idea must die
 
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Cuchulainn
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should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 21st, 2015, 12:45 pm

Quote

Originally posted by: Traden4Alpha
Quote

Originally posted by: Cuchulainn
Quote

Originally posted by: Traden4Alpha
And Elizabeth Warren felt Native American, right?

---

It all depends on how one defines race in a social and legal context.

If one argues that race is defined on genetic terms -- people of different genetic compositions are functionally different -- then its a matter of DNA testing.

If one argues that race is defined on visual terms -- people treat people differently based on skin color -- then a dark-skinned Caucasian might be "blacker" than a light-skinned African.

And if one argues that race is really a socio-economic phenomena defined by parental resources -- people of different financial backgrounds experience different opportunities growing up -- then its a matter of means testing independent of DNA and skin color.


And don't forget Scots-Ulster, what?
Yes, and what about wannabe Celts??!?!

There should be laws about who gets to have bonfires and who doesn't otherwise New Grange will be a mixed-race mob scene, what?

(Happy Solstice, BTW!)


Indeed; you can' let every Tom, Dick and Harry starting their own bonfires.
 
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Cuchulainn
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should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 21st, 2015, 12:48 pm

Quote

Originally posted by: exneratunrisk
This idea must die: race - ther's no such thing as race

There're many other ideas blocking progress in many fields: this idea must die


Indeed.

Frisians are Israelite
Last edited by Cuchulainn on June 20th, 2015, 10:00 pm
 
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AnalyticalVega
Posts: 2260
Joined: January 16th, 2013, 5:03 am

should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 21st, 2015, 2:54 pm


In the end, there are only good people and bad people. The bad people call themselves good, and the good people call themselves good. Now sort that out.
 
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Cuchulainn
Posts: 56672
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Location: Amsterdam
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should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 21st, 2015, 4:21 pm

Quote

Originally posted by: AnalyticalVega
In the end, there are only good people and bad people. The bad people call themselves good, and the good people call themselves good. Now sort that out.


Very OT.
 
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katastrofa
Posts: 6115
Joined: August 16th, 2007, 5:36 am
Location: Alpha Centauri

should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 22nd, 2015, 2:36 am

Quote

Originally posted by: ppauper
there's been a little to-do in the US because a crazy white woman identified herself as black and obtained a leadership position in the NAACP, who were none too pleased when they realized she wasn't black. The lady in question (Rachel Dolezal) said she told people she was black because she "felt" black

Why is this wrong? We are discriminating against transracial people.
Transgendered people have broken down this barrier, so why not transracial people?
If Ms Dolezal felt that she was a man in a woman's body and wished to live as a man, society would accomodate her request, so why is it different when she's a black person in a white body and wishes to live as a black person? Why are we discriminating against her ?

Rush weighed in on this earlier
Quote

"I think I?m gonna identify as skinny. That way I will not have to ever go on a diet."



I haven't bothered to read the full story, but isn't the problem that she didn't make it clear from the start that she wasn't black in the conventional sense? Rather came up with the story about her self-perception only when caught.
We could use haplogroup instead of race. I'm T, no surprise.
Last edited by katastrofa on June 21st, 2015, 10:00 pm
 
User avatar
ppauper
Topic Author
Posts: 68451
Joined: November 15th, 2001, 1:29 pm

should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 22nd, 2015, 7:57 am

Quote

Originally posted by: katastrofa
Quote

Originally posted by: ppauper
there's been a little to-do in the US because a crazy white woman identified herself as black and obtained a leadership position in the NAACP, who were none too pleased when they realized she wasn't black. The lady in question (Rachel Dolezal) said she told people she was black because she "felt" black

Why is this wrong? We are discriminating against transracial people.
Transgendered people have broken down this barrier, so why not transracial people?
If Ms Dolezal felt that she was a man in a woman's body and wished to live as a man, society would accomodate her request, so why is it different when she's a black person in a white body and wishes to live as a black person? Why are we discriminating against her ?

Rush weighed in on this earlier
Quote

"I think I?m gonna identify as skinny. That way I will not have to ever go on a diet."



I haven't bothered to read the full story, but isn't the problem that she didn't make it clear from the start that she wasn't black in the conventional sense? Rather came up with the story about her self-perception only when caught.
We could use haplogroup instead of race. I'm T, no surprise.


I've seen the same thing on Springer, where "women" haven't make it clear from the start that they weren't women in the conventional sense, and it always ends badly.

But why is race different?
If someone is born a man but self-identifies as a woman, evidently we're supposed to ignore the elephant in the room and pretend they're a woman.
So if someone self-identifies as black, or native american, or inuit, why don't we have to play along with that also?
 
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katastrofa
Posts: 6115
Joined: August 16th, 2007, 5:36 am
Location: Alpha Centauri

should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 23rd, 2015, 12:24 am

I believe the practical difference is that transgender persons are a minority and as such they qualify for legal protection, while "trans-ratial" and all those whose (self-)identification doesn't put them under the threat of social persecution don't... But this case doesn't look like a ground for the debate on freedom of self-identification. That woman was simply lying or made herself look as if she was lying, both unacceptable in her situation as she was in a prominent position within an ethnic minorities' rights organisation. She made them look ridiculous. People lie too much and in a poor style nowaydays.
 
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ppauper
Topic Author
Posts: 68451
Joined: November 15th, 2001, 1:29 pm

should people be allowed to self-identify?

June 23rd, 2015, 9:03 am

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