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Cuchulainn
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Re: "don't do riddles"

March 16th, 2017, 5:24 pm

In fairness, Agile software teams do a lot of Whiteboarding.
Any Wilmotters into Agile, what?

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outrun
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Re: "don't do riddles"

March 16th, 2017, 5:42 pm

look at that stock chart top-left!
 
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Gamal
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Re: "don't do riddles"

March 16th, 2017, 10:22 pm

 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: "don't do riddles"

March 17th, 2017, 7:51 pm

Do you guys do fixed sized./fixed cost projects or do you rent by the hour?
Last edited by Cuchulainn on March 17th, 2017, 8:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: "don't do riddles"

March 17th, 2017, 7:55 pm

What about lion-taming.
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: "don't do riddles"

March 17th, 2017, 7:59 pm

look at that stock chart top-left!
Wrong domain!! It's a burn-down chart and very useful. It avoids the 90% complete syndromw in software i.e. leave the difficult 10% to the end when the budgte has becomne depleted. It's basic good project managemert that Agile has hyjacked :D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn_down_chart

Even more useful is the S curve I once automated this for Comprimo Engineers on an Apple II. It's real information!


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outrun
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Re: "don't do riddles"

March 17th, 2017, 9:23 pm

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capafan2
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Re: "don't do riddles"

March 22nd, 2017, 3:39 pm

This is a circlejerk thread but I feel tempted to contribute.

Firstly Hansson knows bubble sort. He is just exaggerating. He has probably forgotten QuickSort which is most programmers right after the interviews. 

A typical IT role is very very different from a Quant role. IT roles require breadth while Quant roles need a lot of depth. Most good IT folks work hard to achieve this breadth. Any given skill is practically trivial but learning it takes time and is therefore non-trivial. Like learning about AWS Cloud. Nothing brilliant but it will take someone a year before they will become reasonably good at it. And by the time you get there something has changed. As such you are  constantly chasing your tail.

You get paid big bucks for  being a jack of all  who can also be hands-on. Big bucks in IT typically means a billing rate of $130-$150 in a place like NYC or other similar metro areas. So not that good by the standards of this group. But good ones typically work out more hours (50-60 per week) which nets a more than decent living if your monthly expenses don't cross $10K per month (assuming your wife works a similar gig and you have kids you will have nanny expenses). Most good folks I know make a family income of $400K and are sitting pretty. But again not as pretty as the professed standards of this forum.

You can ask riddles and puzzles and algorithms but people who tend to crack those don't typically do well in jobs which need plenty of grunt work. They get bored or simply think they are too superior for that kind of role. That is no good for the role. 

When someone says they know algorithms really most of the time what is really expected is them to know the implications of O(n^2) vs. O(n). A lot of programmers who I would happily hire have not even heard of Big O but will be useful members of team when delivery is at stake. A lot of those who can wax eloquent about Big O will show up to work like they are doing everyone a favor and boss around those they consider inferior.

Overall it is a very different world out there in traditional IT compared to Quant. And in my experience whiteboard interviews are counter productive. It usually (not always) ensures you get assholes over productive workers. The primary reason being jobs are very elastic. If I don't get this job I can get that one. Bill rates range from $110-150 per hour. I can always take the lowest bidder and keep looking. If I get paid $500K to $1000K a year (like in Finance I guess) and if it is very hard to find a similar job then I am forced to deliver daily. That pressure is missing in IT. If I get kicked out here I go there and there is plenty of there to choose from. 

One of my friends in finance lost his job and he found 8 months to find a new one. I assume he is getting paid very well. But he told me it is not unusual to take 2 years to find a new job. That is a very different kind of pressure from the ones IT folks face. 
 
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outrun
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Re: "don't do riddles"

March 22nd, 2017, 4:26 pm

So if a quant says "I don't do riddles" then he risks having to search for an additional two years!
 
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rmax
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Re: "don't do riddles"

March 23rd, 2017, 6:10 pm

A oft quoted and misquoted line that applies to agile: Agile is like teenage sex. Everyone is saying that they are doing it, people don't actually know who are doing it, and those that are, are probably doing it badly.
 
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MattF
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Re: "don't do riddles"

April 11th, 2017, 2:01 pm

I have some sympathy with the protest as I can't remember things like how to find the length of a string (in any language) either. Of course I know it's something like .len or strlen() or length() and I'll find out when I need it (then promptly forget again). A whiteboard interview where I'm allowed to write pseudo-code is fine but if they're testing syntax knowledge I'd invariably fail.
 
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Paul
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Re: "don't do riddles"

April 11th, 2017, 2:15 pm

Maybe you should fail!

In the west we are months away from "Discrimination on the grounds of ability" becoming illegal.
 
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outrun
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Re: "don't do riddles"

April 27th, 2017, 8:49 pm

A cool trick that will certainly impress! 
skip to 2:00
 
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ISayMoo
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Re: "don't do riddles"

April 28th, 2017, 11:07 pm

People complain about every possible interview/recruitment technique:
  1. just read their CV and quizz them on experience - it gives an advantage to bullshitters who lie on / embellish their CVs
  2. whiteboard coding - see the OP
  3. coding home assignments - use up too much of the candidate's time
  4. brainteasers - don't test relevant skills, luck plays too much role in the process
There is no silver bullet here IMHO. Interview process always sucks. The only way to make less painful is to have it done by intelligent, open-minded people. But how do you recruit them in the first place?

Personally, I think a candidate for a programming job should be required to write code during the interview. They may be allowed to access reference materials, but if you're hiring a C++ developer than you should expect a certain level of familiarity with C++ syntax, STL, etc. Otherwise they'll be painfully inefficient on the job.
 
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snufkin
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Re: "don't do riddles"

April 29th, 2017, 10:54 pm

There is no silver bullet here IMHO. Interview process always sucks. The only way to make less painful is to have it done by intelligent, open-minded people. But how do you recruit them in the first place?

Personally, I think a candidate for a programming job should be required to write code during the interview. They may be allowed to access reference materials, but if you're hiring a C++ developer than you should expect a certain level of familiarity with C++ syntax, STL, etc. Otherwise they'll be painfully inefficient on the job.
My favourite speaker on the subject, Mark Horstman, says, "good candidates never complain about the process."
My personal experience is, the people who ask stupid questions, the people who ask you riddles—let it sink in, it's important—are generally not the people you will be working for or with. They were dragged out of their real tasks to have a "proper" (yes, it's an irony in those quotes) interview process, and they need to come up with something—or they were given a script. They don't care whether or not you'll join the company, as long as you don't annoy them. If you're choosing to be picky and not pick a company that's not playing the game you want—well, good luck.