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Gill
Posts: 92
Joined: August 4th, 2002, 3:09 am

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 23rd, 2007, 9:51 am

QuoteIn that aspect, how to compare quant position at IBs vs. HFs, which one could prepare me more for the trader path?I would recommened to go to an IB, but it all depends upon particular desk and your role in the business...
 
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airmenow
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Posts: 28
Joined: May 15th, 2005, 9:48 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 23rd, 2007, 6:06 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: MartingaleBusterNJIf everyone who got a job from meeting someone at a cigar store was fired from their job on wall street I think that the workplace would be kind of empty.This is what I am saying: HR does not always send the best candidates through. I would think that someone who feels that they are in the trading business would always be on the lookout for talent whether or not there is space on the desk you run. Maybe some guy who you meet on the net and guide through this process (not hand the job to) might be a little more loyal to you than some little shit who has the Lehmans and the Morgans of the world chasing after them.But if you don't like someone or are indifferent to them, rather than give them advice they can read in a Vault guide, which yes Columbia has free access to, and act like this is a great service remain silent or better yet refer them to the Vault guides.Since I am not some big time trader at Bank "X" I am sure my advice is worth little but If I were to try and get a trading job I would,1. Read Reminiscences of a Stock Operator, Pit bull and Liar's poker. I also personally like the book: Charlie D.: The Story of the Legendary Bond Trader. 2. Read the financial news on the Bloomberg terminal daily. (Columbia students have free access to this.)3. Read Derivatives Week. (Columbia students have free access to this.)4. Go and check out the websites of some of the online exchanges i.e. www.euronext.com or www.cme.com5. Read the Shreve Books and the Hull Book and yes work through the problems in them, The Options book from the NYIF is also a good start.6. Try and use the Columbia Network.7. Once again Network! Network! Network!8. Remember what Winston Churchill once said - "No success is final, no failure fatal. It's the courage to continue that counts."Frankly if he finds reading financial news boring and finance books boring, and networking boring, then why bother working in finance?But then again, what is my opinion worth? Maybe if I get lucky enough to work as a trader at Bank "X" then I can have people listen to me.Airmenow, what you need to hear is this: If trading is something you feel that you must do, in fact is the only thing for you (Like in Rilke's Letters To a Young Poet) you should do it. If it is a matter of just wanting to be the "boss" or the prestige or the money or for that matter a desire not to have to do much math anymore, for the sake of who ever employs you please consider something else.MBuster, I do appreciate your generosity as to help someone who you don't really know here, not just that your advice is very valuable and practical to me, but the point that people got to have some faith in what they want to do.
 
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airmenow
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Posts: 28
Joined: May 15th, 2005, 9:48 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 23rd, 2007, 6:19 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: NorthernJohnQuoteOriginally posted by: Gilli guess you should start as a quant and move to trading after few years if you like it... it's not as easy to start as a trader with your background 'cause it's not clear what you can bring to the table rite away. it's just my opinion some other people may think differentlyIf he can't bring anything to the trading table right away, why should he spend years doing something different? This view, often repeated, just does not match with how it works in the city. All a trader brings is their potential, at the beginning.There seems to be this belief that people will learn trading skills from afar while spending time training for another job.Being a quant is crappy training for being a trader. Trading is great training.NJ, since I am being practical here, sorry if you feel that I am so directly. What exactly are people looking for from a fresh phd, in general, if they want to rescruit a jr. trader ? As you said what matters is what and how he/she can contribute right away. I want to know more details about this "what" and "how". You can just say to the degree as not to disclose unnecessary pravacy.thanks.
 
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KackToodles
Posts: 4100
Joined: August 28th, 2005, 10:46 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 23rd, 2007, 7:24 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: airmenowWhat exactly are people looking for from a fresh phd, in general, if they want to rescruit a jr. trader ? They are looking exactly for somebody with trading experience. Somebody who has spent their lives studying an irrelevant subject from a book is not really on their radar. Bottom line: you will be competing against at least 5-10 traders (at least with some financial experience or MFE/MBA training and some internships) for every decent trading job. Why should the employer pick you ahead of these other impressive candidates if you have zero experience and knowledge about the field? The employer is just being realistic. Would your phd advisor choose to hire a phd in mechanical engineering to teach applied math? Fat chance!
Last edited by KackToodles on April 22nd, 2007, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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N
Posts: 2808
Joined: May 9th, 2003, 8:26 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 24th, 2007, 2:34 am

More specifically, my Ph.D work is on the Stochastics PDEs models from applied math point of view, say how to set up the funtional setting ( the solution space and solution process bases), correlation and stability, and the numerics for both the forward the problem using the SPDEs as the model and the inverse problem with these SPDEs as constrains. airmenow,I doubt if you'll find a decent job. Your PhD work is useless for quantitative finance (the last dime was made 20 years ago using SPDEs), and on top of that Columbia does not have a highly regarded math department. Since you're from Columbia, I bet your C++ skills are also poor.If you're interested in finance, why not enroll in a finance program at NYU or CMU.N
 
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MartingaleBuster
Posts: 66
Joined: September 29th, 2005, 5:57 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 24th, 2007, 5:40 am

N,Columbia does not have a highly regarded Math Dept? Maybe you should tell Karatzas that, I don't think he's heard the bad news...
 
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N
Posts: 2808
Joined: May 9th, 2003, 8:26 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 24th, 2007, 11:22 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: MartingaleBusterN,Columbia does not have a highly regarded Math Dept? Maybe you should tell Karatzas that, I don't think he's heard the bad news...Karatzas is one of the main reasons Columbia's math program is not highly regarded. Karatzas' work is pure crap. He depends on the 'second counting axiom', which is quite questionable given the significant evidence that it's wrong. World class mathematicians do not mess with this junk axiom.Let me assure you... If you use Karatzas math, you will not make money in quantitative finance.
 
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KackToodles
Posts: 4100
Joined: August 28th, 2005, 10:46 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 24th, 2007, 2:28 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: NKaratzas is one of the main reasons Columbia's math program is not highly regarded. Karatzas' work is pure crap. He depends on the 'second counting axiom', which is quite questionable given the significant evidence that it's wrong. World class mathematicians do not mess with this junk axiom. I don't know much about academic math or karatzas's academic reputation, and I don't pretend to offer an opinion here. On the other hand, I have found karatsas's textbooks to be quite worthless in practice. they are long-winded, over-priced, and dry with almost no good practical applications. If all you "know" about practical finance is mainly learned from reading those books, you are in big trouble.
Last edited by KackToodles on April 23rd, 2007, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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PDiCarterY
Posts: 102
Joined: March 15th, 2005, 7:46 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 24th, 2007, 3:09 pm

With all these comments, I am not so sure if I should even apply to Columbia's Statistics or Applied Mathematics program anymore...
 
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N
Posts: 2808
Joined: May 9th, 2003, 8:26 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 24th, 2007, 3:35 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: PDiCarterYWith all these comments, I am not so sure if I should even apply to Columbia's Statistics or Applied Mathematics program anymore...PDiCarterY,NYU's Applied Math program is world class (Peter Lax, et al) if you like NYC.
 
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PDiCarterY
Posts: 102
Joined: March 15th, 2005, 7:46 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 24th, 2007, 3:39 pm

Thanks, N.
Last edited by PDiCarterY on April 23rd, 2007, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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KackToodles
Posts: 4100
Joined: August 28th, 2005, 10:46 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 24th, 2007, 4:24 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: NNYU's Applied Math program is world class (Peter Lax, et al) if you like NYC.so what's their acceptance rate? 3%?
 
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nrd6
Posts: 2
Joined: April 16th, 2007, 8:06 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 24th, 2007, 5:41 pm

Columbia's math department will be ranked top 15 in the country in any rankings you can find (top 10 in a lot) so to say it's not highly regarded is silly (unless no US universities other than Berkeley, MIT, Stanford, Princeton, and Harvard count)
 
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MartingaleBuster
Posts: 66
Joined: September 29th, 2005, 5:57 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 24th, 2007, 6:02 pm

N,The Axiom of Choice is wrong?FYI There is a quantitative mutual fund called Intech, which uses stuff Karatzas has worked on. Yhey've done quite well. What in your mind is a decent job?NYU is World class, but Lax is getting a little old. As far as pure Mathematicians go Columbia has Hamilton and Osvath and if those names aren't familiar to you then I wonder how much REAL Math you know.
 
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N
Posts: 2808
Joined: May 9th, 2003, 8:26 pm

Ivy Applied Math Ph.D -> Derivative Trader ?

April 24th, 2007, 6:45 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: MartingaleBusterN,The Axiom of Choice is wrong?FYI There is a quantitative mutual fund called Intech, which uses stuff Karatzas has worked on. Yhey've done quite well. What in your mind is a decent job?NYU is World class, but Lax is getting a little old. As far as pure Mathematicians go Columbia has Hamilton and Osvath and if those names aren't familiar to you then I wonder how much REAL Math you know.Yeah, Peter is into symplectic manifolds, but I haven't seen any significant discoveries/contributions. If you want to do gauge theory go with Kac at MIT. And Hamilton's Ricci flow is just more useless stuff associated with the heat equation. Those two you mention from columbia are just inbred academic types.And I'd say Intech is going to be in serious trouble. I suggest that you unload that turkey.
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