SERVING THE QUANTITATIVE FINANCE COMMUNITY

 
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DominicConnor
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How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 29th, 2007, 8:39 am

What sort of engineering ?
 
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N
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How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 29th, 2007, 9:03 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: HyperGeometricQuotenoexpert,I hate to bust your bubble, but a PhD in engineering from an Ivy ain't worth shit in finance. If you were getting a PhD from MIT, that might be a different story.Once you get your PhD, you'll need to get your MS in financial engineering before anyone seriously looks at you - like it or not, that's the way it is.nLooking at the placement stats of PhDs in ORFE (i.e. Engineering) at Princeton, several people have done very well for themselves in Finance/Wall St. Assuming "N" was only referring to other engineering programs, It's hard to accept (in fact even think) that engineers from ivy leagues aren't worth much in Finance considering there are tons of them with big positions on Wall St.Of course, adding the no. of engineers from ivy leagues on Wall St vs number of engineers from MIT on Wall St, it's not hard to imagine that former would have more people than latter (8 vs 1)....just stating facts.Coming back to the original post, there isn't much academic value associated with MS in Financial Engineering programs. Although it's true that several people go for them after their PhD, it's equally true that several of them have taken positions in quant finance without them and will continue to do so. Just take a few courses in finance at your uni during your PhD and that should be fine. Speak to the people/alumni in your department or professors in your uni interested in quant finance. They'll give u a good idea on what to expect at this time. It's slightly late for this summer but if u try hard, you can get something (may be at a small fund or even a large bank). If you're done generals, try for internship during fall. It's not late for that at all.What??? ORFE is a financial engineering program (what do you think the FE stands for?). There is no arguement that almost all FE students do well in finance/Wall street. (As a side note, I'd rate Princeton's ORFE program quite poorly because of the quality of the faculity - talking about poor academic value)And HyperGeometric, no one in this forum is dumb enough to believe your claim that there are "tons of" Ivy PhD electrical/mechanical/civil/software engineers with no FE degree in"big positions" on Wall street. And Wall street internships all filled are almost exclusively with FE types.Regarding non-finance positions - There are many PhD level engineers/physicists/mathematicians going to work for hedgefunds and some banks. The jobs are in algorithmic trading. These are extremely competitive, high salary positions where grads/faculity from only the best engineering schools are selected. For these positions MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech grads would be considered first before those from second tier Ivy grads (Princeton Physics is an exception).
 
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pgeek
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Joined: April 24th, 2006, 2:34 am

How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 29th, 2007, 9:43 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: NQuoteOriginally posted by: HyperGeometricQuotenoexpert,I hate to bust your bubble, but a PhD in engineering from an Ivy ain't worth shit in finance. If you were getting a PhD from MIT, that might be a different story.Once you get your PhD, you'll need to get your MS in financial engineering before anyone seriously looks at you - like it or not, that's the way it is.nLooking at the placement stats of PhDs in ORFE (i.e. Engineering) at Princeton, several people have done very well for themselves in Finance/Wall St. Assuming "N" was only referring to other engineering programs, It's hard to accept (in fact even think) that engineers from ivy leagues aren't worth much in Finance considering there are tons of them with big positions on Wall St.Of course, adding the no. of engineers from ivy leagues on Wall St vs number of engineers from MIT on Wall St, it's not hard to imagine that former would have more people than latter (8 vs 1)....just stating facts.Coming back to the original post, there isn't much academic value associated with MS in Financial Engineering programs. Although it's true that several people go for them after their PhD, it's equally true that several of them have taken positions in quant finance without them and will continue to do so. Just take a few courses in finance at your uni during your PhD and that should be fine. Speak to the people/alumni in your department or professors in your uni interested in quant finance. They'll give u a good idea on what to expect at this time. It's slightly late for this summer but if u try hard, you can get something (may be at a small fund or even a large bank). If you're done generals, try for internship during fall. It's not late for that at all.What??? ORFE is a financial engineering program (what do you think the FE stands for?). There is no arguement that almost all FE students do well in finance/Wall street. (As a side note, I'd rate Princeton's ORFE program quite poorly because of the quality of the faculity - talking about poor academic value)And HyperGeometric, no one in this forum is dumb enough to believe your claim that there are "tons of" Ivy PhD electrical/mechanical/civil/software engineers with no FE degree in"big positions" on Wall street. And Wall street internships all filled are almost exclusively with FE types.Regarding non-finance positions - There are many PhD level engineers/physicists/mathematicians going to work for hedgefunds and some banks. The jobs are in algorithmic trading. These are extremely competitive, high salary positions where grads/faculity from only the best engineering schools are selected. For these positions MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech grads would be considered first before those from second tier Ivy grads (Princeton Physics is an exception).The grads from MIT/Princeton in engineering (atleast in EECS) whom i know or heard of have all gone onto postdocs/faculy positions. Im not sure if algorithmic hedge funds find quants from MIT/ Princeton..
 
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N
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How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 29th, 2007, 11:20 am

The grads from MIT/Princeton in engineering (atleast in EECS) whom i know or heard of have all gone onto postdocs/faculy positions. Im not sure if algorithmic hedge funds find quants from MIT/ Princeton.. That's an interesting comment.Why would anyone do a postdoc? The pay is just too high in industry. There are exceptions, however. Clearly PhD Physics are virtually unemployable in their field so they'll jump at any/every poor pay postdoc position. And yes, EECS has not been a particularily good major choice given the flood of H1-Bs during the last half-dozen years, and postdocs are a safety net. But there is no way top EE/Signal Processing PhDs from MIT are going to settle on the low-life salary associated with a faculity position.
 
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KackToodles
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How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 29th, 2007, 3:16 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: NBut there is no way top EE/Signal Processing PhDs from MIT are going to settle on the low-life salary associated with a faculity position. but many of them don't know about wall street. they just herd into the low salary faculty positions because it's their dream job.
 
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twofish
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How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 29th, 2007, 10:38 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: NOnce you get your PhD, you'll need to get your MS in financial engineering before anyone seriously looks at you - like it or not, that's the way it is.No it's not.
 
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twofish
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How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 29th, 2007, 10:44 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: noexpertHi all,I am new to this forum. I am doing my phd in engineering from an ivy league school. I dont have any formal degree in finance but I have a very strong mathematical background and I am really interested in finance. Recently I realized that I should do an internship just to get an idea of this industry.The best way I've found to get a general overview about what the industry is like is to put out your resume to headhunters and start interviewing. Once you get past the nice man in the blue blazer on the first floor, you'll chance a huge to look around, and see what things are like. The nice thing about the finance industry is that there are a lot of different roles at a lot of different companies each with their own culture.
 
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twofish
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How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 29th, 2007, 10:49 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: noexpertThanks spaceinvader! I looked up theri website. It seems that they dont have anything left for US (Am I correct?) Can you suggest me how to find positions in CS apart from talking to alums.A lot of finding positions involves standard sales practices. Go to conferences and seminars, pick up business cards, network, network, network, and when you need something, you go down your list of contacts and start calling/emailing people.
 
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KackToodles
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How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 30th, 2007, 5:49 am

The trouble with trying to short cut it if you're a techie without a bonafide finance degree, like an mfe or finance phd, it is ony too easy to wind up as a back office software grunt.
Last edited by KackToodles on April 29th, 2007, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tadragh1
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Joined: July 3rd, 2006, 10:06 am

How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 30th, 2007, 6:47 am

Try JP Morgan's one-off graduate/internship roles page.
 
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N
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Joined: May 9th, 2003, 8:26 pm

How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 30th, 2007, 10:26 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishQuoteOriginally posted by: NOnce you get your PhD, you'll need to get your MS in financial engineering before anyone seriously looks at you - like it or not, that's the way it is.No it's not.For quant roles - that's the way it is. But for non-quant roles like bit-flinging, firms don't care about a MSFE degree.
 
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twofish
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Joined: February 18th, 2005, 6:51 pm

How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 30th, 2007, 12:03 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: NFor quant roles - that's the way it is. But for non-quant roles like bit-flinging, firms don't care about a MSFE degree.Again this is just not true. If you have a semi-decent headhunter and a Ph.D. in some heavily quantitative subject, there should not be any problem in getting interviews for quant positions in this market.
 
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twofish
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How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 30th, 2007, 12:14 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: KackToodlesThe trouble with trying to short cut it if you're a techie without a bonafide finance degree, like an mfe or finance phd, it is ony too easy to wind up as a back office software grunt.If you don't want to work in the back-office just say no. However, the typical back office quant developer job isn't plugging in ethernet cables, it involves writing software that insures that orders get executed within milliseconds of the order being made, and developing order routing algorithms in trading platforms to figure out which of the twenty possible places you can place the order gets you the best price. Also even in the front office and mid-office, once you start producing, no one cares where you got your degrees or what your degrees are in, once you get in. They do care if you know the business, but that type of knowledge is not the stuff that you will learn in the classroom, because it changes rapidly, what the business is like today is different than it was six months ago and it will be different six months from now. An MFE or Finance degree can be useful for getting in, but the impact on your career once you get in is nil.
 
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spaceinvader
Posts: 151
Joined: October 7th, 2006, 5:58 pm

How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 30th, 2007, 12:57 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofish developing order routing algorithms in trading platforms to figure out which of the twenty possible places you can place the order gets you the best price. Now how do these routing algorithms work? any references? Graph theory? Optimization?
 
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N
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Joined: May 9th, 2003, 8:26 pm

How to find an internship ? Is it too late ?(IVY phd)

April 30th, 2007, 1:33 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishQuoteOriginally posted by: NFor quant roles - that's the way it is. But for non-quant roles like bit-flinging, firms don't care about a MSFE degree.Again this is just not true. If you have a semi-decent headhunter and a Ph.D. in some heavily quantitative subject, there should not be any problem in getting interviews for quant positions in this market.twofish,I'm afraid that you simply don't know what your talking about. Firms (like hedge funds) that hire PhDs in heavily quantitative subjects aren't hiring quants. It's very simple, quants do not and cannot design algorithmic trading algorithms.On the other hand, sell side firms require real quant skills (MSFE) and see no value in heavily quantitative subjects.If you want a quant role get a MSFE. If you want to work in algorithmic trading get a PhD with focus on, for example, Vertex Algebra. There is no way a PhD physicist with expertise in Vertex Algebra is going to get a job as a quant - it just doen't happen. Nor will a quant ever get a job with a hedge fund like Rentec.I get this feeling that you have zero work experience with either sellside or buyside firms.N
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