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twofish
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April 30th, 2007, 2:04 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: NI'm afraid that you simply don't know what your talking about. Firms (like hedge funds) that hire PhDs in heavily quantitative subjects aren't hiring quants. It's very simple, quants do not and cannot design algorithmic trading algorithms.I think we are just defining "quant" differently. The problem I had with your definition is that it may be misleading to newbies who conclude that they have to get a MSFE to get anywhere in the industry, which just isn't the case.QuoteI get this feeling that you have zero work experience with either sellside or buyside firms.The industry is huge, and I'm just saying what I'm seeing. Your original assertion was that QuoteOnce you get your PhD, you'll need to get your MS in financial engineering before anyone seriously looks at you - like it or not, that's the way it is.and I have enough experience to know that this just isn't true (if anyone is interested in my situation, PM me). None of the people I've interviewed with has ever had a MSFE, and not having a MSFE has not been any sort of barrier for me. I've done a huge amount of reading in financial mathematics, and it may be that I've learned the functional equivalent of the MSFE over the last several years, and that is useful in interviews, but no one cares about the degree.You might reply that the jobs that I've been in the running for aren't "real quant jobs." Maybe. I don't really care. As long as it pays well and is interesting, I don't care about the job title, and neither, I suspect, do most of the people that ask questions in this group.The danger for a new Ph.D. to get another degree before trying to interview is that the job market is extremely cyclical. Getting a MSFE runs the risk that when you get it, you'll end up coming out on the wrong time in the business cycle.
 
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twofish
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April 30th, 2007, 2:11 pm

Getting an internship is a good idea, but you have to be careful about generalizing any experiences you might have. I've had conversations with people in the afternoon where they tell me that no firm does X, Y, and Z when that very morning I was at a firm that did exactly X, Y, and Z. (Pm for details).
 
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spaceinvader
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April 30th, 2007, 2:25 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: N It's very simple, quants do not and cannot design algorithmic trading algorithms.NSo how do we design algorithmic trading systems? what tools are used in this optimization?
 
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pgeek
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April 30th, 2007, 5:46 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishQuoteOriginally posted by: NI'm afraid that you simply don't know what your talking about. Firms (like hedge funds) that hire PhDs in heavily quantitative subjects aren't hiring quants. It's very simple, quants do not and cannot design algorithmic trading algorithms.I think we are just defining "quant" differently. The problem I had with your definition is that it may be misleading to newbies who conclude that they have to get a MSFE to get anywhere in the industry, which just isn't the case.QuoteI get this feeling that you have zero work experience with either sellside or buyside firms.The industry is huge, and I'm just saying what I'm seeing. Your original assertion was that QuoteOnce you get your PhD, you'll need to get your MS in financial engineering before anyone seriously looks at you - like it or not, that's the way it is.and I have enough experience to know that this just isn't true (if anyone is interested in my situation, PM me). None of the people I've interviewed with has ever had a MSFE, and not having a MSFE has not been any sort of barrier for me. I've done a huge amount of reading in financial mathematics, and it may be that I've learned the functional equivalent of the MSFE over the last several years, and that is useful in interviews, but no one cares about the degree.You might reply that the jobs that I've been in the running for aren't "real quant jobs." Maybe. I don't really care. As long as it pays well and is interesting, I don't care about the job title, and neither, I suspect, do most of the people that ask questions in this group.The danger for a new Ph.D. to get another degree before trying to interview is that the job market is extremely cyclical. Getting a MSFE runs the risk that when you get it, you'll end up coming out on the wrong time in the business cycle.Job market is cyclical alright, but from say 2004 nothing much has changed or so it appears to me. Quants have been around since 1990s, how will 2 years change the equation so much??
 
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DominicConnor
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April 30th, 2007, 7:00 pm

I'm afraid that you simply don't know what your talking about. Firms (like hedge funds) that hire PhDs in heavily quantitative subjects aren't hiring quants. It's very simple, quants do not and cannot design algorithmic trading algorithms.Sorry N, this is wrong, either that or large banks give me money for finding people who then lie to me about what they're doing.Hell I've been lied to before, but you're implying a serious conspiracy theory The longer I hang around banks the more I'm sceptical of anyone who says "banks don't do X". I've found one large bank getting it's quants to do a form of computer hardware design, and I defy anyone to trump that.
Last edited by DominicConnor on April 29th, 2007, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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twofish
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April 30th, 2007, 7:15 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: pgeekJob market is cyclical alright, but from say 2004 nothing much has changed or so it appears to me. Quants have been around since 1990s, how will 2 years change the equation so much??Demand is extremely fickle, and the ease/difficult in getting a job changes radically from year to year. If you wait two years, then you risk getting a fresh degree right during the recession of 2009 in which Wall Street is laying off people by the truckloads and no one is hiring.
 
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TraderJoe
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April 30th, 2007, 10:11 pm

SO HOW'S THAT AMAZING QUANT JOB OF YOURS GOING TWOFISH? MY, YOU MUST HAVE, LET ME SEE, ZERO YEARS EXPERIENCE BY NOW??DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH.PEOPLE, STAY AWAY FROM THIS CLOWN. HE'S NEVER GOT PAST THE INTERVIEW STAGE!!!Cheers,TJ.
 
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N
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April 30th, 2007, 10:27 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: DCFCI'm afraid that you simply don't know what your talking about. Firms (like hedge funds) that hire PhDs in heavily quantitative subjects aren't hiring quants. It's very simple, quants do not and cannot design algorithmic trading algorithms.Sorry N, this is wrong, either that or large banks give me money for finding people who then lie to me about what they're doing.Hell I've been lied to before, but you're implying a serious conspiracy theory The longer I hang around banks the more I'm sceptical of anyone who says "banks don't do X". I've found one large bank getting it's quants to do a form of computer hardware design, and I defy anyone to trump that.So you're saying banks are hiring quants to do algorithmic trading. Let me guess - isn't it much more true that a bank/hedgefund will be looking for a PhD EE Signal Processing or Phd Math and the person you offer and subsequently gets the job has no idea what quantitative finance is.It is quite true that quants are never involved with algorithmic trading (at banks, hedge funds, etc) other than perhaps as coders in C++. There are first principle reasons for this. (Naturally this assumes the bank/hedgefund is making money with algorithmic trading). It's easy to count the quants at RenTec - Zero...BTW. I always lie to pimps. One doesn't want to give away intellectual property.And twofish, the best thing about algorithmic trading jobs is that they are not subject to the business cycle hiring ups and downs associated with quant jobs.
Last edited by N on April 30th, 2007, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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KackToodles
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May 1st, 2007, 3:29 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishDemand is extremely fickle, and the ease/difficult in getting a job changes radically from year to year. If you wait two years, then you risk getting a fresh degree right during the recession of 2009 in which Wall Street is laying off people by the truckloads and no one is hiring. toolfish, stop spreading false rumors to scare the youngster. When have you ever seen a poor out of work quant? Never. Have you ever seen a quant saying "My field is too fickle. Maybe I should try to find a programming job!" Never!
 
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twofish
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May 1st, 2007, 5:27 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: KackToodlestoolfish, stop spreading false rumors to scare the youngster. When have you ever seen a poor out of work quant? Never. Have you ever seen a quant saying "My field is too fickle. Maybe I should try to find a programming job!" Never!There hasn't been a down cycle bad enough to cause mass layoffs in recent years (although you never know), and one good thing about the compensation structure of finance is that in a bad year, what happens is the bonuses get cut before people get laid off. However, the first thing that happens in a bad year is a hiring freeze, and there have been some years (2001-2002) which have been had enough that there was no hiring of new people. This is a bad thing if you are fresh out of school with debts and no income.
 
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twofish
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May 1st, 2007, 5:42 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: NSo you're saying banks are hiring quants to do algorithmic trading.Or people with both quant and high reliability software background. One role involves interfacing pricing strategy code with a trading platform. This requires quant knowledge since the time requirements are so stringent, and you can't treat the pricing algorithm as a black box. Another role is that having traders do trades by hand is becoming obsolete so that there is a role in building tools that allow traders to essentially "script" trades. This again requires quant knowledge since the scripting requires deep interaction with pricing models which requires quant knowledge.QuoteIt is quite true that quants are never involved with algorithmic trading (at banks, hedge funds, etc) other than perhaps as coders in C++.The fact that NYSE and all of the exchanges are moving toward electronic trading has changed things quite a bit. Eventually all trading is probably going to be algorithmic trading.QuoteAnd twofish, the best thing about algorithmic trading jobs is that they are not subject to the business cycle hiring ups and downs associated with quant jobs.Everything is subject to the business cycle and economic laws of supply and demand. Right now, jobs in algorithmic trading are hot because no one has written a book like Hull or Wilmott and so to do what the employers want you need basic signals knowledge. What will likely happen is that in three to five years, people will come up with Masters in Algorithmic Trading degrees at which point you'll have a flood of people with these skills, and the new challenge will be elsewhere.
 
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twofish
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May 1st, 2007, 5:59 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: TraderJoeSO HOW'S THAT AMAZING QUANT JOB OF YOURS GOING TWOFISH?Quite well in fact...... Anyone that has been reasonably decent to me can PM for details or they can try and find me at the weekly seminars at NYU or Columbia, and I'll tell them about the wonderous and wacky things that have been happening to me recently.QuotePEOPLE, STAY AWAY FROM THIS CLOWN. HE'S NEVER GOT PAST THE INTERVIEW STAGE!!!One thing that I found out in academia was that the career advice given by people already established in the field was near useless. The problem is that they usually entered the field so long ago that they had no idea what the current job market was like. The other problem is that often the speaker answers a question which is irrelevant to the person that is asking, and often the person asking the question isn't aware of the subtle details that make the answer irrelevant.
 
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TraderJoe
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May 1st, 2007, 10:36 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: N.BTW. I always lie to pimps.Them and project managers.
 
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TraderJoe
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May 1st, 2007, 10:37 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishQuoteOriginally posted by: TraderJoeSO HOW'S THAT AMAZING QUANT JOB OF YOURS GOING TWOFISH?Quite well in fact...... Anyone that has been reasonably decent to me can PM for details or they can try and find me at the weekly seminars at NYU or Columbia, and I'll tell them about the wonderous and wacky things that have been happening to me recently.Do you think anyone is even remotely interested ???No !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by TraderJoe on May 1st, 2007, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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KackToodles
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May 2nd, 2007, 4:38 am

tj, be careful. toofish could walk onto your desk as your new boss any day now.
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