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KackToodles
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September 19th, 2010, 5:00 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: Finance1987many of the most significant research or say groundbreaking research is done by IMO winners and Putnam fellows-- you can't deny this. Feynman (nobel prize winning physicist was a Putnam fellow, John Milnor who won the Fields medal was a multiple times Putnam Fellow too..)A strong correlation does exist between solving difficult problems quickly and doing math research-- qualities people like D E SHAW and Co look or crave for...Two examples, feynman and milnor, do not make correlation. Go look up the list of the 100 nobel prize winners in science (physics, chem, medicine). How manyof them are top 10 putnam winners? Less than 5, I bet. That's 5 out of 100 people = 5%. And, if you count all the other nobel prize winners in economics, literature, etc etc, you're talking about 250 people. Then if you count all the billionaires, musicians, presidents and prime ministers and CEOs of the world -- you figure out that putnam winners have VERY low representation amongs the shakers and movers of the world. All in all, scoring high on the putnam example predicts that your future income will probably be below average because you'll become a math nerd(and, I may add, a poorly trained math nerd who thinks a couple of outliers like Feynman = statistically significant proof!).
Last edited by KackToodles on September 19th, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Mulberry
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September 19th, 2010, 2:08 pm

I bet the top 100 national spelling bee winners become more successful in life and make more money than the top 100 putnam winners. That's because they learn how to memorize well and then go to medical school instead of the trenches of a quantitative doctorate.... Should have read the dictionary a couple of times to become interpretational before I made the decision to study mathematics. Although, I wouldn't have anywhere to post with such fine characters ...
 
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farmer
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September 19th, 2010, 9:16 pm

They say people hire Phd's not just for their math success, but their broader skillsets: Hard-working, persistent, stable, willing to work cheap, respond well to authority. There are numerous fields which teach life skills. Football is supposed to be the best. You know "It's not whether you got knocked down, it's whether you got back up."Reading that other thread about how miserable people find trading, I think someone could have used a little time on the football field.
 
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mrmister
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September 19th, 2010, 11:51 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: KackToodlesQuoteOriginally posted by: Finance1987many of the most significant research or say groundbreaking research is done by IMO winners and Putnam fellows-- you can't deny this. Feynman (nobel prize winning physicist was a Putnam fellow, John Milnor who won the Fields medal was a multiple times Putnam Fellow too..)A strong correlation does exist between solving difficult problems quickly and doing math research-- qualities people like D E SHAW and Co look or crave for...Two examples, feynman and milnor, do not make correlation. Go look up the list of the 100 nobel prize winners in science (physics, chem, medicine). How manyof them are top 10 putnam winners? Less than 5, I bet. That's 5 out of 100 people = 5%. And, if you count all the other nobel prize winners in economics, literature, etc etc, you're talking about 250 people. Then if you count all the billionaires, musicians, presidents and prime ministers and CEOs of the world -- you figure out that putnam winners have VERY low representation amongs the shakers and movers of the world. All in all, scoring high on the putnam example predicts that your future income will probably be below average because you'll become a math nerd. A lot of PhD dudes have an obsession towards grades, prizes, competitions, and other academic distinctions. Does anybody on this forum think that somebody is going to give you 100 million dollars just because you aced a math test at the age of 20? How many fund managers you know care about math competitions?Finance1987 - As Kack points out above, what you come up with is not a statistically significant sample to even think about correlation.
 
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AbhiJ
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September 20th, 2010, 8:38 am

There are two types of quants here - quants by choice and quants due to absence of choice.There are super geeks who work for DE Shaw and major I Banks in highly paid roles. They have PhD in Finance/Applied Mathematics. These guys don't mind C++ programming and modeling and excel at it.Then there are some low ranking PhDs/MFEs - the broken scientific type. They went into PhD however they were neither exceptional in science and below average in people skills. These are usually stuck in excel plumbing. mind numbing, shitty programming , low paid BO/MO jobs.
 
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farmer
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September 20th, 2010, 5:54 pm

It is also a consideration that DE Shaw is in Manhattan. I remember a writer pointed out that official/census poverty is greater in Palo Alto, California than in East Palo Alto, a run-down ghetto dump. All these Stanford students are poor on paper. But they get free football games, movies, housing, I am sure they surf every weekend and get drunk every night and screw college girls.These same people go to Manhattan every girl wants a guy who will enable her to quit working, get her student loans paid off, and live in a $7500 apartment.So you will spend an extra:$15,000 a year buying girls dinner$84,000 on rent$35,000 on taxes $20,000 on some harlot's student loans$6,000 on clothes and dry cleaning------------$160,000 to get back to even.
 
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farmer
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September 20th, 2010, 6:56 pm

It could be even worse if you already have a girlfriend or a wife. Kids forget about it. You want to pay $40,000 a year to send them to school?But if you bring a country girl to Manhattan - and remember she married you when you were a poor geek - she is going to wonder what the whole point is just so you can live in some box and not be able to afford a car. I was looking at those NYC apartments for $7500. If you are going to live in one of those, you better do it with a girl whom you met in New York and knows what the expectations are. You bring a girl from a normal-sized home to live in that - one who is not stupid with ambition to become a TV star or something - she will be gone on the afternoon train.
 
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GiusCo
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September 20th, 2010, 9:04 pm

I'm not sure I understand properly if you are trying a definition for "genius", "logically/math gifted" or just "gut instinct".Technically speaking, a "genius" can be measured, compared with peers. But on the broader sense, a "genius" is rarely understood in his/her time: this sort of people generally anticipate the accepted knowledge of 10-20-50 years (Einstein is some part unknown and misunderstood yet). So I can't see how people very good in the very present day-by-day market can be labelled geniuses. Maybe "related to the spirit of the time", "deeply understanding their game", but genius is something else, often a sheer and not useful at all ability (like playing violin or translating poetry).
 
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farmer
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September 21st, 2010, 2:21 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: GiusCoSo I can't see how people very good in the very present day-by-day market can be labelled geniuses. Maybe "related to the spirit of the time", "deeply understanding their game", but genius is something else, often a sheer and not useful at all ability (like playing violin or translating poetry).Maybe there are very few phenomena that give any use for genius. Consider a chess game. Not only is it contrived to be fairly complex. It is also entirely observable, and removes all elements of chance and other noise. Playing violin is designed to make perfect use of manual coordination, ear sensitivity, and memory. Most life pursuits are so sloppy, there are insufficient observations, and the system is so random, there is nothing for the genius to work with. A genius can do no better predicting the weather than a trained meteorolgist, given nothing but the immediate sky to go on.Like suppose I want to learn a new language. Given limited observations of the language in practice, a genius can do no better than me. If the genius had perfect memory, perhaps he could recall all phrases he ever heard spoken, and sit and contemplate this material better than a non-genius. But in most real-life situations, there would not be much incremental advantage for the world's greatest genius over the average person with a gift for languages. You would hear the same important phrases over and over. And there is no larger order to recognize by adding the less-used phrases to your epoch.And where language has no meaning, and the accent is strange, there may be serious boundaries to remembering everything heard based on the brain's poor setup to be a sound-file recorder. Without a well developed ear, even the smartest brain may take some time to accumulate the catalog of new sounds in the strange language - in order to remember them as serieses of subsounds in different contexts. But even if all this was overcome, the genius would probably not be presented with new sounds and contexts to remember and associate at a rate faster than a gifted person could handle.
 
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EscapeArtist999
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September 21st, 2010, 7:55 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerIt is also a consideration that DE Shaw is in Manhattan. I remember a writer pointed out that official/census poverty is greater in Palo Alto, California than in East Palo Alto, a run-down ghetto dump. All these Stanford students are poor on paper. But they get free football games, movies, housing, I am sure they surf every weekend and get drunk every night and screw college girls.These same people go to Manhattan every girl wants a guy who will enable her to quit working, get her student loans paid off, and live in a $7500 apartment.So you will spend an extra:$15,000 a year buying girls dinner$84,000 on rent$35,000 on taxes $20,000 on some harlot's student loans$6,000 on clothes and dry cleaning------------$160,000 to get back to even.This is classic farmer, but I think your restaurant estimate is a little low, she's gong to insist on going to per se once a year, minimum. Furthermore, 6000$ a year on clothes and dry cleaning, the SO will spend at least 10,000$ on the throwaway wardrobe alone.... Plus, you exclude the weekend trips to the hamptons, you exclude the overseas vacations to visit her relatives, you exclude all the money spent on shows, clubs, bars -that's probably another 20,000$ AND then you'll have to hear her criticize you for spending too much on yourself when you buy a few DVDs for yourself - criticizing you for not savin up money to pay for the children she eventually wants to have!
Last edited by EscapeArtist999 on September 20th, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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traderjoe1976
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September 21st, 2010, 8:14 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerIt is also a consideration that DE Shaw is in Manhattan. I remember a writer pointed out that official/census poverty is greater in Palo Alto, California than in East Palo Alto, a run-down ghetto dump. All these Stanford students are poor on paper. But they get free football games, movies, housing, I am sure they surf every weekend and get drunk every night and screw college girls.These same people go to Manhattan every girl wants a guy who will enable her to quit working, get her student loans paid off, and live in a $7500 apartment.So you will spend an extra:$15,000 a year buying girls dinner$84,000 on rent$35,000 on taxes $20,000 on some harlot's student loans$6,000 on clothes and dry cleaning------------$160,000 to get back to even.I think taxes are $35,000 PER MONTH and not $35,000 PER YEAR.
 
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GiusCo
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September 21st, 2010, 3:54 pm

mmm I don't take such a mechanistic approach ... if I did, I should say that Usain Bolt is a geniusbut he isn't, he simply got a very good genes package, the one you are summoning as "perfect" genius thinks abstract from concrete, such as... applicative... see a fire AND use it for cookingin every case this appears a social matter more than a biological one, so I quit... let the fool show the way
 
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photoguy
Posts: 36
Joined: June 25th, 2010, 2:06 pm

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September 21st, 2010, 4:26 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: traderjoe1976QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerIt is also a consideration that DE Shaw is in Manhattan. I remember a writer pointed out that official/census poverty is greater in Palo Alto, California than in East Palo Alto, a run-down ghetto dump. All these Stanford students are poor on paper. But they get free football games, movies, housing, I am sure they surf every weekend and get drunk every night and screw college girls.These same people go to Manhattan every girl wants a guy who will enable her to quit working, get her student loans paid off, and live in a $7500 apartment.So you will spend an extra:$15,000 a year buying girls dinner$84,000 on rent$35,000 on taxes $20,000 on some harlot's student loans$6,000 on clothes and dry cleaning------------$160,000 to get back to even.I think taxes are $35,000 PER MONTH and not $35,000 PER YEAR.Well, this is supposed to be tongue in cheek, but I actually think $35,000/year is pretty realistic for incremental taxes on a well-paid professional. The dinner out budget is too low, though.
 
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sunra
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September 23rd, 2010, 5:56 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerAll these Stanford students are poor on paper. But they get free football games, movies, housing, I am sure they surf every weekend and get drunk every night and screw college girls.can anyone confirm this? looking for motivation to go for a phd ... but somehow i doubt the phd students get drunk and/or are popular with ze ladies also de shaw blows but david shaw is one cool dude, even if i doubt the usefulness of 'computational biochemistry'
 
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traderjoe1976
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September 23rd, 2010, 9:36 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: sunraQuoteOriginally posted by: farmerAll these Stanford students are poor on paper. But they get free football games, movies, housing, I am sure they surf every weekend and get drunk every night and screw college girls.can anyone confirm this? looking for motivation to go for a phd ... but somehow i doubt the phd students get drunk and/or are popular with ze ladies also de shaw blows but david shaw is one cool dude, even if i doubt the usefulness of 'computational biochemistry'The PhD students are there to work 70 hours a week CHEAP for 6 years. If you get drunk, they will kick you out of the PhD program.The undergrads have a great deal of respect for the PhD students and refer to the PhD students as Poor International Graduate Students (PIGS).The only consolation is that if you survive the 5 years of the PhD program you can make good money afterwards.
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