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cnayak
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 9th, 2007, 2:44 pm

I have two offers in hand right now - one from India's largest private bank and another in a top 3 financial services firm. Both position are based in Mumbai. The first offer, from the Indian bank, is into analytics for the trading desk. They have promised to put me into other roles in the future. The other offer is basically credit research in the firm's captive KPO. It is more oriented towards corpfin, i guess. I'll be primarily doing the same work fro two-three years after which I'm expected to go for higher studies. I am pretty much confused about which firm to join. the Indian bank is offering much better work profile and future growth. While the american bank has a great brand which may help a lot in mba admissions later on. The remuneration from both firms is pretty competitive. Which offer should I be considering? As of now, I don't really know if i want to get into trading or an investment banking role.
Last edited by cnayak on November 8th, 2007, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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ArthurDent
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 9th, 2007, 5:59 pm

That's difficult to answer without knowing your background and aims:For example:Define "analytics for trading desk", is that a front office job? then i doubt that "remuneration from both firms is pretty competitive"Do you want to do MBA? (So you are not a quant?) In India or America?Will the American bank sponsor the tuition for MBA? You may need to stay with them for 2 years afterwards.Do you want to remain in Indian banking industry or move to NY/LON later?etc.In general, if you are just starting your career, take max risk and go for highest position you can get.
 
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cnayak
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 9th, 2007, 6:25 pm

For the Indian bank, I'll be analyzing large datasets using SAS and predict how changes may affect prices in the future. My would-be boss there talked about moving me into sales and trading profile later on, after the probation period (1 yr). Actually, the Indian bank is paying slightly less than the JP Morgan Chase. Plus the Indian bank is giving away loans at very little interest rates I can actually buy a car straight out of college. In absolute terms it may not seem great but given PPP the I really want to do my MBA abroad rather I want to study abroad. I'm targeting mostly US B-schools and a couple of UK colleges. I talked with the MD of JPMorgan in India who heads their research center and he told me that typically they expect grads to work for two-three years and then go for MBA. and I am not keen on going on a sponsored MBA as it may limit my choices.Finally, I want to work in NY/London after my MBA for a decade or so and then move back to India. I have no plans to settle abroad permanently.My chief concern is when I'm applying to b-schools, which will cut more ice with the admissions council - work ex in JPMorgan (albeit limited to credit research) or from an Indian bank (with a better and more diverse work profile)?
Last edited by cnayak on November 8th, 2007, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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ZmeiGorynych
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 9th, 2007, 6:27 pm

Work profile trumps name. If you get into a boring hole at a 'top 3 financial services firm', it's very hard to get out of - and then what use is its brand name to you? The job at the Indian bank sounds like it's much closer to the money - and that's far and away the most important factor in determining how fun, challenging, and well paid a job is over time. You could always work with them for 1-2 years and then get a job in London.And if you have two years' worth of good career growth with fun roles, you shouldn't have any problem getting into an MBA (why would you want to, BTW?).Finally, credit research might not be a growth area during the next 2 years
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cnayak
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 9th, 2007, 6:58 pm

Isn't an MBA a pre-requisite for progressing to the associate role in ibanks? Given a choice, I really wouldn't want to study for two years, if I can learn the stuff on the job. But a b-school is great for networking and stuff. Its better in that respect than the M.Sc finance right?
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ZmeiGorynych
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 9th, 2007, 7:17 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: cnayakIsn't an MBA a pre-requisite for the associate role in ibanks? Certainly not in quant finance - I don't think any colleague of mine has an MBA. In M&A possibly, though I doubt that too. As for networking, yes perhaps, but just working in a major centre like London gives you plenty of other chances to network. I think there is an important divide between research jobs that are M&A-like and quant-like. The former require comparatively little prior knowledge or mathematical talent, and the way to distinguish yourself intially is through reliability and grinding. Quant-type jobs require much better math skills, on the other hand if you're good you can do a good job and get noticed even while doing comparatively humane hours (like 8-7, no weekends). You should know what is more suited to your profile, though if they offer you the SAS job, I'd guess your analytical skills are OK.
 
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cnayak
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 9th, 2007, 7:26 pm

Really? Wow, thats a pleasant surprise . Can you please elaborate on that? I mean. any idea of career progression without an MBA in ibanks. How difficult would it be for me to shift from India to say London or NY after relevant work experience? Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable with numbers and maths. My undergrad degree is in Mechanical Engineering btw.
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twofish
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 9th, 2007, 11:33 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: cnayakReally? Wow, thats a pleasant surprise . Can you please elaborate on that? I mean. any idea of career progression without an MBA in ibanks.It depends on the role, but no one I know in quant finance has an MBA. Also people with either Ph.D.'s or several years of work software engineering experience get hired directly into associate roles. An MBA may be a ticket into business, but once you are already in, it is of almost no usefulness, which means that people who get in without an MBA, don't ever try to get one afterwards.My worry for you is that the big name banks generally keep their core operations in London/New York/Hong Kong/Tokyo and they really don't farm out these services much to India. If you start in Mumbai with an Indian bank, you might be closer to the money and the core operations of the bank, which would make it much easier to move elsewhere.
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PlasticSaber
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 10th, 2007, 11:10 am

Both seems to be good offers. At the end, it comes down to the trading vs corporate finance decision... Once you make up your mind about this big big decision, the choice is obvious. Having say that, for one who has absolutely no preference between the trading and corpFin route, I take a side opposite to Twofish and Zmei here:1) While the big name banks tend to keep their core operations in their headquarter, M&A/corporate finance can still be very interesting in the local branch. Due to language/cultural/geographical barrier, the M&A/CorpFin work have to be done locally (esp for emerging market). The work and learning process is just as solid -- not really the case for quant finance. Ironically, if the local hiring manager told the candidate that their team covers mainly developed market, one should be caution that the team may just do outsourcing type of work.2) The relative brand name premium worths a lot more for those who intends to travel abroad. Your further employer, headhunter/HR that you meet in the future may not familiar with the who's who in your home country. When people encounter something that they are not familiar they tend to generalise (ie the applicant is a bank worker from somewhere far far away) rather than checking further.3) SAS usage comes in two different contexts: in-house data analysis for direct trading support (which is good), customer relationship management oriented data mining (ie mining for credit card spending pattern, credit worthiness for the individual accounts etc, which is bad). The latter one is in fact a lot more common the the former one esp for private banks (googling SAS banking). I guess Dominic's usual suggestion applies here: clarify where will you sit for your first job. Make sure there will be some actual traders on the same floor with you.
 
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cnayak
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 10th, 2007, 3:16 pm

I'll clarify a couple of points you have raised: The work profile with the american bank is basically as follows: 1. Gathering and analyzing data from a variety of sources; including company reports, the internet, online databases and bank's proprietary content.2. Develop, Build and maintain financial databases and earnings models of companies and industries; generating regular and one-off reports, graphs and datasets from these databases, using a standard model format.3. Writing content (text, tables and charts) for company and industry reports and presentations; to be used internally and published externally by colleagues in other parts of global research.4. Maintaining regular contact with colleagues in the global sectors; taking part in conference calls and responding to project requests5. Responding to various client requests coming through the Analyst teams which may include aggregating and organising the data that the client requests for. The american bank's subsidiary can be best described as a captive KPO. The brand name is great but is it worthwhile to do the same thing over and over again for two-three years?The Indian bank is currently offering the "better" SAS profile you mentioned. Its more of a front desk role, methinks. They are placing me in their swank HQ with the trading floor.
Last edited by cnayak on November 9th, 2007, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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sriharsha
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 12th, 2007, 8:09 am

cnayak, from my research on MBA programs and admissions they like to pool together candidates from similar backgrounds and evaluate them accordingly. So, if you are applying as an ex banker from JP Morgan, you will not be compared to someone who was a teacher or an engineer. They will pit you against bankers from other american banks (including JP Morgan) so since you say that you will be doing KPO work for them, I don't know how much and how well you will be able to sell this to the admissions and also if they compare you with an analyst in M&A or Leverage Finance then, to me, it seems like the odds stack up against you pretty heavily... So to me the Indian bank's offer seems to have a lot more potential and a chance for you to take on more responsibilities (cuz you are closer to the money, and numbers always help you to sell much easily!) Also you won't have the offshore tag on you (since you are not working in the offshore arm of an american corp.) Also you say they promised to move you into other roles in the future, but do they really keep their promises? I mean do you know of anyone that entered in your position and was moved (w/out too much hassle) to these other roles? Unless its an actual rotation program, i would be skeptical of this until you can get a clear answer from an existing employee who was in similar shoes... you should actually post your question on BusinessWeek's Bschool forum, where several admission consultants just answer these type of questions pretty much all day long... (btw, if you don't mind, which indian bank is this? I was in India for 6 months, so just curious as to which indian banks hire for their trading desks)
 
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sriharsha
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 12th, 2007, 8:10 am

cnayak, from my research on MBA programs and admissions they like to pool together candidates from similar backgrounds and evaluate them accordingly. So, if you are applying as an ex banker from JP Morgan, you will not be compared to someone who was a teacher or an engineer. They will pit you against bankers from other american banks (including JP Morgan) so since you say that you will be doing KPO work for them, I don't know how much and how well you will be able to sell this to the admissions and also if they compare you with an analyst in M&A or Leverage Finance then, to me, it seems like the odds stack up against you pretty heavily... So to me the Indian bank's offer seems to have a lot more potential and a chance for you to take on more responsibilities (cuz you are closer to the money, and numbers always help you to sell much easily!) Also you won't have the offshore tag on you (since you are not working in the offshore arm of an american corp.) Also you say they promised to move you into other roles in the future, but do they really keep their promises? I mean do you know of anyone that entered in your position and was moved (w/out too much hassle) to these other roles? Unless its an actual rotation program, i would be skeptical of this until you can get a clear answer from an existing employee who was in similar shoes... you should actually post your question on BusinessWeek's Bschool forum, where several admission consultants just answer these type of questions pretty much all day long... (btw, if you don't mind, which indian bank is this? I was in India for 6 months, so just curious as to which indian banks hire for their trading desks)
 
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bhutes
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Good work profile or great brand name - which is ideal for first job?

November 13th, 2007, 6:28 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: sriharsha(btw, if you don't mind, which indian bank is this? I was in India for 6 months, so just curious as to which indian banks hire for their trading desks)Got to be ICICI.