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farmer
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Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 5th, 2009, 2:07 am

I am curious where I can advertise to find programmers in general, in different cities and even countries.I have interviewed and tested so many programmers they are all retarded at any price. I was thinking of setting up a school for programmers but to be honest I imagine I would have to fail everyone.
 
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quantspot
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Joined: February 4th, 2009, 2:48 am

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 5th, 2009, 8:30 am

go to india/china
 
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arkoud
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Joined: March 13th, 2009, 9:56 am

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 5th, 2009, 8:35 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerI have interviewed and tested so many programmers they are all retarded at any price. .I think with the title of your post you have answered your own question. You can't really expect to find good programmers for cheap. When you say any price what exactly is the range you are offering and what kind of experience are you looking for?I'm not asking for myself as I am not a programmer but I know quite a few top ones that are making good money so I would like to understand better what you mean.
 
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Y0da
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Joined: August 7th, 2007, 4:48 pm

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 5th, 2009, 8:39 am

What is "cheap"?
 
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msperlin
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Joined: July 10th, 2006, 6:21 pm

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 5th, 2009, 10:17 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerI am curious where I can advertise to find programmers in general, in different cities and even countries.I have interviewed and tested so many programmers they are all retarded at any price. I was thinking of setting up a school for programmers but to be honest I imagine I would have to fail everyone.What about this:http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/Do ... fault.aspx
 
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farmer
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Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 5th, 2009, 11:01 am

I put ads that say state your salary requirements and experience. If someone wanted to answer and say he is worth $400,000 a year he could. But I haven't heard anything like that. So I guess my real question is where can I advertise and get at least one answer like that? Of course if I were to say I am paying $400,000, I would get responses from all the same idiots, hoping for $400,000.I have one guy on Rentacoder working for me a while. I reposted my ad three times, got at least 60 responses, and he is the only one that sounded like he had any chance of doing the work. So anyway he has quit at least three times because he was spending months and not getting the job done. Even though I let him pick a second and third assignment depending on which one he thought he could actually finish.I reposted the original assignment on Rentacoder it has like 60 responses again, but I am dreading sifting through them for a sign of life. The only way I can screen programmers is to give them a test and sit right behind them watching them solve the problem. The tests run from 45 minutes to 5 hours, and they enable me to verify in advance how these people will just spin their wheels.So simple question: Where should I advertise?
 
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farmer
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Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 5th, 2009, 11:16 am

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Last edited by farmer on June 4th, 2009, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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DrBen
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how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 5th, 2009, 4:26 pm

Quote...go to india/china...Can't say anything meaningful generic about these locations but I have had good experience with testersin India very motivated and through. With China no direct experience but but had a friend who was sent toset up team for Wireless router programming, basically set up everything but after 2 years shut it downafter little progress and serious problems trying to communicate with these people. Basically, seemed inthis case people could either speak/write English or program but not both. Also, interestingly worked withethnic Chinese people and they told me they would never out source to China.This topic is close to my heart at present with my recent thread Calibration of Contracting Rates.QuoteSo simple question: Where should I advertise?Since I have been in software (with exception) of brief period in 2001, basically there has been a shortage of goodpeople, basically people who will get the job done as you detailed. The last time I did direct recruiting I failed15 people and spent 3 hours on each.... When they arrive you have the highest hopes by the end you wantto just go and get a stiff drink. Advertising location is a problem I do not know the solution to and if I knewwhere to advertise to get good people I would do it myself (and not tell anyone else the location).If you get good people which is far from non-trivial task then my calibration of what they expect to get is:1) US (California): 10-20K USD/month2) Romania/Bulgaria: 3-4K Euro/month (after tax, but these places are also tax havens anyway with appropriate structures)3) China: 2K Euro/month (not done this myself and so third hand information)If pay below this chances are all good people will leave (at least when upturn comes) and just be left withlemons, if pay over this then worry attract people who jump between jobs for marginal increases in pay.... Iwould just stick to this, which is my understand of the market price.Basically, if you go to IBM, KPMG etc or Sun Guard, SAP etc then the sign the deal in London/NY at 200 GBP/hourrate or similar and FTP the project offshore. Even offshore you do not necessary get decent people... But Iknow people working for 15/20 GBP per hour offshore whose billable rate onshore is 200 GBP/hour, quite aspread. I use such people myself, amazing now easy it is with Skpye and PayPal!, and cannot understandwhy anyone buys at the front door at retail prices when can go to the back-door and buy at institutional rates. In terms of going to an outsourcing firm they do bodies either 1/2 time or full time, on per month basis. Forreputable firms the standard international rates as I understand are around 4K Euro for a tester, but you stilldo not know exactly what you are going to get for your money.
Last edited by DrBen on June 4th, 2009, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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QuantVader
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how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 5th, 2009, 4:30 pm

Go to the math and physics departments of your local university and get a few PhD students.
 
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quantspot
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Joined: February 4th, 2009, 2:48 am

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 9th, 2009, 10:53 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: msperlinQuoteOriginally posted by: farmerI am curious where I can advertise to find programmers in general, in different cities and even countries.I have interviewed and tested so many programmers they are all retarded at any price. I was thinking of setting up a school for programmers but to be honest I imagine I would have to fail everyone.What about this:http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/Do ... xGetACoder and RentACoder, which is better?
 
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twofish
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Joined: February 18th, 2005, 6:51 pm

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 9th, 2009, 11:27 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: DrBenBasically, seemed in this case people could either speak/write English or program but not both.You could get an ethnic Chinese with C++ and management skills that can translate between English and Chinese. However, said ethnic Chinese would charge you an arm and a leg. *grin*You also have the interesting effect that if you have someone that does have excellent English skills, and excellent programming skills, they'll end up in the United States.QuoteAlso, interestingly worked with ethnic Chinese people and they told me they would never out source to China.I wouldn't. The problem is that the good ones aren't cheap and the cheap ones aren't good. You can get some cheap introductory programmers in China relatively cheap, but they second someone gives them a better offer, they are gone, and you are left with the dross. You could try the Accenture model of having armies of not so great developers, and with lots of managers, with the problem that good managers in China will cost you.QuoteSince I have been in software (with exception) of brief period in 2001, basically there has been a shortage of goodpeople, basically people who will get the job done as you detailed.[/q[I don't think that there is a shortage of people. There is a shortage of people that will work for nothing.QuoteBut I know people working for 15/20 GBP per hour offshore whose billable rate onshore is 200 GBP/hour, quite aspread. I use such people myself, amazing now easy it is with Skpye and PayPal!, and cannot understandwhy anyone buys at the front door at retail prices when can go to the back-door and buy at institutional rates. Because when you go to IBM, you aren't paying for programmers. You are paying for "solutions."
 
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twofish
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Joined: February 18th, 2005, 6:51 pm

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 9th, 2009, 11:28 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: QuantVaderGo to the math and physics departments of your local university and get a few PhD students.Hard to do, unless you have an interesting problem. Just because someone is willing to be a slave doesn't mean that they are willing to be *your* slave.
 
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Anthis
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Joined: October 22nd, 2001, 10:06 am

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 9th, 2009, 12:00 pm

Cuba
 
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DrBen
Posts: 7
Joined: February 8th, 2003, 1:24 pm

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 9th, 2009, 3:24 pm

QuoteTwoFish: You could get an ethnic Chinese...This guy tried spent a lot of time in China and after 2 years it came to nothing. Like everythinglooks good in theory but its in the details which make or break the deal.
 
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deepvalue
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Joined: April 25th, 2007, 6:08 am

how can i find cheap programmers in Miami?

June 10th, 2009, 7:55 am

hire one of the underemployed phd astronuclearphysics nerds who posts to wilmott/careers. The risk? Guy turns out to be a poor programmer and unprofessional too.
Last edited by deepvalue on June 9th, 2009, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.