SERVING THE QUANTITATIVE FINANCE COMMUNITY

 
User avatar
KackToodles
Posts: 4100
Joined: August 28th, 2005, 10:46 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 9th, 2010, 7:35 am

is there any job for a C++ programmer that is NOT in a ghetto?
 
User avatar
Quant0k
Posts: 82
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 7:50 am

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 9th, 2010, 10:19 am

QuoteA lot depends on what you want to do. If you a geek that is interested in geeky things. There are a lot of FO jobs where you are just filling in spreadsheets and a lot of BO jobs in which you are playing with really cool toys.The other thing is that the pay differential between a FO code monkey and a BO code monkey isn't that huge.Twofish : I do agree with you when you say that the pay differential between FO code monkey and BO code monkey isnt all that huge. In fact, they may not even be comparable because the two might be in different countries and thereby have comparable purchasing powers on otherwise unequal salaries. So what do you think is the one big difference between a FO code monkey and a BO code monkey?
 
User avatar
GiusCo
Posts: 124
Joined: March 26th, 2010, 10:00 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 9th, 2010, 4:44 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishQuoteOriginally posted by: GiusCoFO positions and trading are seen here as the best jobs. I'm sure you experts may answer one simple question (I'm a noob so please excuse me).I have no clue why. If you are reading this group, there is an 90% chance you are going to be a code monkey. You can be a FO code monkey or a BO code monkey, and the former set of jobs are not necessarily better than the latter set.A lot depends on what you want to do. If you a geek that is interested in geeky things. There are a lot of FO jobs where you are just filling in spreadsheets and a lot of BO jobs in which you are playing with really cool toys.The other thing is that the pay differential between a FO code monkey and a BO code monkey isn't that huge.too old, not qualified and not hungry enough to be a code monkeyjust learning about energy finance and strengthening my numerical analysis knowledgestill wondering about the FO myth ... spreadbetting my own money, gambling and playing poker gives the taste, but I'm sincerely worried reading how many youngsters dream of playing the big finance casino, the vast numbers, millions ... I would say to them: make $1000 starting from $10 for three times then come back... and if you go broke more than 5 times then it is not a job for you, I would never put someone else's money (the taxpayer money to say it all) into your accountbut you know, I'm not part of the gang and will never be
 
User avatar
ERider
Posts: 2
Joined: August 7th, 2010, 5:43 am

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 9th, 2010, 6:46 pm

Thanks mrmister. My sense is that you are correct about firms trading energy valuing risk management more than say a long only equity shop. I suspect the difference is the risk model. For energy market risk you've got to know the intracacies of the market: the players, the trends. Probably a scenario based risk measure. I think that in long only equity, the standard deviation measure computed from historical returns is probably still the staple. I wonder if the standard deviation of the portfolio or of a position is valuable or valued these days. I cynically think that the measure is not valued and not used to influence portfolio construction ideas and that the number is reported and measured so that the firm can they that they employ 'risk management' to their clients.Happy risk managers, are your reports used in the portfolio construction process? Do you feel like report monkeys?I have no problem putting together reports. I do have a problem with producing reports that are immediately deleted...
 
User avatar
quantmeh
Posts: 5974
Joined: April 6th, 2007, 1:39 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 9th, 2010, 11:43 pm

and why exactly risk mgmt is ghetto?
 
User avatar
mrmister
Posts: 225
Joined: August 15th, 2009, 4:33 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 10th, 2010, 2:34 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ERiderThanks mrmister. My sense is that you are correct about firms trading energy valuing risk management more than say a long only equity shop. I suspect the difference is the risk model. For energy market risk you've got to know the intracacies of the market: the players, the trends. Probably a scenario based risk measure. I think that in long only equity, the standard deviation measure computed from historical returns is probably still the staple. I wonder if the standard deviation of the portfolio or of a position is valuable or valued these days. I cynically think that the measure is not valued and not used to influence portfolio construction ideas and that the number is reported and measured so that the firm can they that they employ 'risk management' to their clients.Happy risk managers, are your reports used in the portfolio construction process? Do you feel like report monkeys?I have no problem putting together reports. I do have a problem with producing reports that are immediately deleted...In fact, there is little work for quants in equities as an asset class. Energy, commodities are good examples where you also need to use economic principles to create competitive models. Quite a lot of people on this forum probably hate economics but it is quite useful in this line of work. There are a dozen risk metrics that are popular and there are more than a dozen software vendors who sell programs that can compute all of this for you. Work can be interesting in some of these firms as well.
 
User avatar
twofish
Posts: 4944
Joined: February 18th, 2005, 6:51 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 10th, 2010, 3:28 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ERider For energy market risk you've got to know the intracacies of the market: the players, the trends. Probably a scenario based risk measure.For equity based market risk, you *can't* know the intracacies of the market. Too many instruments, and a lot of what happens involves summarize a large amount of data into simple measures that you can comprehend.
 
User avatar
ThinkDifferent
Posts: 659
Joined: March 14th, 2007, 1:09 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 10th, 2010, 9:27 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: KackToodlesis there any job for a C++ programmer that is NOT in a ghetto? LOL this guy is just too funny. what a clueless noob. Let's see.... 3 years experience, model validation, C++ programming 90% of the time. Total comp. 170K USD. Working hours: 9:30am - 6:15pm. Ghetto? )
Last edited by ThinkDifferent on August 9th, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
twofish
Posts: 4944
Joined: February 18th, 2005, 6:51 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 10th, 2010, 10:00 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferentLet's see.... 3 years experience, model validation, C++ programming 90% of the time. Total comp. 170K USD. Working hours: 9:30am - 6:15pm. People that work as front office code monkeys do make somewhat more money, but they also get fired first and the hours are longer.Personally, I think people really have skewed ideas about money sometimes. Good grief. Do people realize how much money $170K/year is (even with NYC taxes).
 
User avatar
EscapeArtist999
Posts: 1620
Joined: May 20th, 2009, 2:49 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 10th, 2010, 10:22 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferentQuoteOriginally posted by: KackToodlesis there any job for a C++ programmer that is NOT in a ghetto? LOL this guy is just too funny. what a clueless noob. Let's see.... 3 years experience, model validation, C++ programming 90% of the time. Total comp. 170K USD. Working hours: 9:30am - 6:15pm. Ghetto? )Dude that's less than first year FO quant!
 
User avatar
EscapeArtist999
Posts: 1620
Joined: May 20th, 2009, 2:49 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 10th, 2010, 10:23 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferentQuoteOriginally posted by: KackToodlesis there any job for a C++ programmer that is NOT in a ghetto? LOL this guy is just too funny. what a clueless noob. Let's see.... 3 years experience, model validation, C++ programming 90% of the time. Total comp. 170K USD. Working hours: 9:30am - 6:15pm. Ghetto? )Dude that's less than first year FO quant!I personally think that quant risk and model validation are over-rated. But then again I was never really intereested in the science of made up numbers.
 
User avatar
twofish
Posts: 4944
Joined: February 18th, 2005, 6:51 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 10th, 2010, 10:33 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: EscapeArtist999Dude that's less than first year FO quant!It's also less than what Bill Gates made last year. Now I can sit around wishing I was Bill Gates, and turn down jobs that pay less than the CEO of Microsoft, or I can take a job that actually exists, and make more money that most people ever will see.
 
User avatar
photoguy
Posts: 36
Joined: June 25th, 2010, 2:06 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 10th, 2010, 4:57 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofishQuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferentLet's see.... 3 years experience, model validation, C++ programming 90% of the time. Total comp. 170K USD. Working hours: 9:30am - 6:15pm. People that work as front office code monkeys do make somewhat more money, but they also get fired first and the hours are longer.Personally, I think people really have skewed ideas about money sometimes. Good grief. Do people realize how much money $170K/year is (even with NYC taxes).I agree that it is quite a bit of money if you are in, say, Portland OR, but it isn't that much where the jobs are. At $170K you are clearing about $100K as an NYC resident. Rent on a decent 1BR place runs you about $40K/year, leaving you with $60K. That is a decent amount of cash to live on, but it isn't putting you on the path to home ownership in NYC, it's really tight once you have kids and need a bigger place and nanny, etc. If your partner makes decent money, that obviously makes things easier, but IMO you really need to be at least one income bracket up to be truly comfortable here.
 
User avatar
twofish
Posts: 4944
Joined: February 18th, 2005, 6:51 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 10th, 2010, 5:23 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: photoguyThat is a decent amount of cash to live on, but it isn't putting you on the path to home ownership in NYC, it's really tight once you have kids and need a bigger place and nanny, etc. If your partner makes decent money, that obviously makes things easier, but IMO you really need to be at least one income bracket up to be truly comfortable here.A lot really depends on what you define as comfortable, but it's a very slippery slope because once you move one income bracket up, your standards of comfort are likely to change. The thing that makes NYC a very uncomfortable place is relative income. If you make 200K in Portland, OR, you are pretty close to the top of the income ladder. There aren't too many billionaires in Portland, and you are unlikely to run into them. In NYC, you are constantly running into people that are richer and in some cases much, much richer than you, and they get in your face.If you work in NYC, you will *feel* a lot poorer, which is why it's necessary to sometimes take a reality break and look at the amount of money that you are making. Something that I did once when I was a graduate student, was that I calculated how much money I had to make to feel rich. I long, long, long ago zoomed past that number, but I keep that number in my head as something as a reality check. Also, I made a list of things that I wanted to do if I had money. Buy expensive cheese and good ramen. After I got my bonus check this year, I celebrated by buying $30 cheese and a pack of $5 ramen, and it was cool because I could do that.The terms "truly comfortable" and NYC just do not mix. The good news about finance is that there are vast and unbelievable sums of money flowing. The bad news is that people don't quite figure out that being around large sums of money is likely to make you feel poorer and not richer, and you really do have to keep a grip on things.
 
User avatar
ThinkDifferent
Posts: 659
Joined: March 14th, 2007, 1:09 pm

Escape from the risk management ghetto

August 11th, 2010, 5:23 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: EscapeArtist999QuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferentQuoteOriginally posted by: KackToodlesis there any job for a C++ programmer that is NOT in a ghetto? LOL this guy is just too funny. what a clueless noob. Let's see.... 3 years experience, model validation, C++ programming 90% of the time. Total comp. 170K USD. Working hours: 9:30am - 6:15pm. Ghetto? )Dude that's less than first year FO quant!it is marginally less for some of the banks (although I know for a fact that some 1st year FO quants at JPM got around 150K last year). however I 1) have almost zero stress at work 2) get to see my family by the dinner time 3) don't have to worry about my ass being on fire in bad times. so far there were no precedents of anyone being laid off in mode val. I value my free time more than money and would rather have extra free hour per day than extra thousand bucks/month. ...anyway, my point was that it's hardly a ghetto job, neither it pays 30% of what FO quants get like KackDoodles said
Last edited by ThinkDifferent on August 10th, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ABOUT WILMOTT

PW by JB

Wilmott.com has been "Serving the Quantitative Finance Community" since 2001. Continued...


Twitter LinkedIn Instagram

JOBS BOARD

JOBS BOARD

Looking for a quant job, risk, algo trading,...? Browse jobs here...


GZIP: On