SERVING THE QUANTITATIVE FINANCE COMMUNITY

 
User avatar
ThinkDifferent
Posts: 659
Joined: March 14th, 2007, 1:09 pm

interview for independent price verification

August 6th, 2010, 6:07 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: deepvalueYeah don't listen to twofish without a bucket of salt. Kacks is funny and always true even if it's not what u want to hear. If u get this job on your resume, u are deep back office, so deep even the accountants won't hire u.*face palm*...Kacks talks nonsense 90% of the time. the guy has almost zero idea about anything. i wonder what he does on this forum at all apart from trying being funny...as per IPV, it could mean two things: 1) an effectively MO or BO operation most people talk about here. the only thing is that most of smart-asses like Kack are wrong about is that these people don't have any exposure to FO. One of the things they look at is reserves, which are of an obvious relevance to the traders, so IPV guys do interact on a regular basis with traders. they also do need to know models to a certain extent (to the extent where they are a) able to calibrate the model independently to verify FO calibration, and b) calculate reserves for parameters that are not directly observable (calibrated)OR 2) (considering they are, for some reason, looking for strong C++ skills) it could also mean verification of one aspect of model validation, namely, implementation checks i.e. creating an independent C++ library that would replicate the FO pricing library with the simple purpose of verifying FO code. This however is usualy covered by a model validation function, so not sure why would they call it IPV, but it could be the case...
 
User avatar
deepvalue
Posts: 918
Joined: April 25th, 2007, 6:08 am

interview for independent price verification

August 6th, 2010, 6:21 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferentOne of the things they look at is reserves, which are of an obvious relevance to the traders, so IPV guys do interact on a regular basis with traders.... heck the doorman secretary receptionist and garbage lady interact daily with traders. That doesn't mean they are front office. That is the dumbest response I have heard.
 
User avatar
ThinkDifferent
Posts: 659
Joined: March 14th, 2007, 1:09 pm

interview for independent price verification

August 6th, 2010, 7:25 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: deepvalueQuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferentOne of the things they look at is reserves, which are of an obvious relevance to the traders, so IPV guys do interact on a regular basis with traders.... heck the doorman secretary receptionist and garbage lady interact daily with traders. That doesn't mean they are front office. That is the dumbest response I have heard.where did I say that they ARE front office?seriously, could some of the mods check is this guy has the same IP as Kacks?...these two produce suspiciously similar moronic posts on a regular basis.
Last edited by ThinkDifferent on August 5th, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
twofish
Posts: 4944
Joined: February 18th, 2005, 6:51 pm

interview for independent price verification

August 6th, 2010, 9:54 am

Also I don't understand this obsession with the front office. If you are reading this group, then the odds are that you will end up being a code monkey. You can end up being a highly compensated code monkey with a nice title, but it's still a code monkey job. Not that there is anything wrong with that.......You can be a front office code monkey or a back office code monkey, and there are back office code monkey jobs that are quite a bit more interesting and lucrative than front office code monkey jobs.
 
User avatar
deepvalue
Posts: 918
Joined: April 25th, 2007, 6:08 am

interview for independent price verification

August 6th, 2010, 2:27 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferentwhere did I say that they ARE front officeu said this job would have "exposure" to traders suggesting that this was a benefit to this job. Why is this a benefit? All those traders are going to use him like they use the secretary then ignore and dump him. Are they going to share a dime of their pnl with him?
Last edited by deepvalue on August 5th, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
deepvalue
Posts: 918
Joined: April 25th, 2007, 6:08 am

interview for independent price verification

August 6th, 2010, 2:35 pm

Goldfish, if u'r going to be a code monkey, it's better to eat u'r bananas in a tech firm that will value and respect u'r coding skills and offer u a fun stimulating work group. Code monkeying in the Bo makes zero sense.
 
User avatar
financeboy
Posts: 2
Joined: February 10th, 2010, 3:31 pm

interview for independent price verification

August 6th, 2010, 2:35 pm

I have spent three years in DB, first in product control and then in the valuations group (now market risk).IPV can be fairly technical for someone with the right skillet but tends to be boring and repetitive after a while.Your decision depends on your career aspirations; if you are happy with an MO (Finance) role or risk management (quantitative or market risk) these opportunities are definitely within reach in a couple of years time.Pay is not bad... In London you should expect after 3 yrs of IPV experience a package of around £65-75k.What is important to clarify is the structure of the team. In DB and MS they have a separate methodology team within valuations which is more project oriented (more technical and less repetitive thus much better), which serves as a support to the IPV day to day tasks. Overall, if that's your only option and you have to find a job asap, go for it and work hard to improve your skillet and market awareness. I am sure you will have opportunities to compete for better roles if you network and build a strong CV.
 
User avatar
ThinkDifferent
Posts: 659
Joined: March 14th, 2007, 1:09 pm

interview for independent price verification

August 7th, 2010, 2:22 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: deepvalueGoldfish, if u'r going to be a code monkey, it's better to eat u'r bananas in a tech firm that will value and respect u'r coding skills and offer u a fun stimulating work group. Code monkeying in the Bo makes zero sense.what you are saying makes zero sense, as usual. here are the differences between FO desk quant and model val. code monkey reimplementing the models and testing them against FO: *) marginally less base pay (e.g. 60K GBP for model val vs 65-70K FO desk quant) *) substantially bigger bonus for FO code monkey (about twice more e.g. 30% for MO vs 60% for FO)*) working hours from 9am to 6pm for MO. FO is way worse.*) virtually no deadlines and no one looking over you shoulder... FO is the opposite.As you can see, the only significant benefit for FO desk quant is the bonus. The other thing is that model val code monkeys tend to work on models across different asset classes and have exposure to a wider range of models. We had numerous examples of guys moving from model val to FO quants with no problem. This is for model val. Now, as financeboy mentioned, at DB, in IPV there is M&M (models&methodologies) team that does more project based work. There were examples of people moving from that team to model val and then to FO.
Last edited by ThinkDifferent on August 6th, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
ThinkDifferent
Posts: 659
Joined: March 14th, 2007, 1:09 pm

interview for independent price verification

August 7th, 2010, 2:24 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: deepvalueQuoteOriginally posted by: ThinkDifferentwhere did I say that they ARE front officeu said this job would have "exposure" to traders suggesting that this was a benefit to this job. Why is this a benefit? All those traders are going to use him like they use the secretary then ignore and dump him. Are they going to share a dime of their pnl with him?why is that a benefit to have exposure to traders?....should I even answer that?
 
User avatar
DominicConnor
Posts: 11684
Joined: July 14th, 2002, 3:00 am

interview for independent price verification

August 7th, 2010, 10:48 am

Independent price verification is a back office role.It may well be a quant role, since often it is a variant on model validation.Twofish may know something I don't about this specific role, but I would be very surprised if this was anything other than back office. OK, it might not be called "back office" but no part of the Catholic church calls itself a gang of padeophiles, doesn't stop it being so.photoguy spoke to an honest ED. It's not a revenue generating job, it won't pay well, , will not be very interesting, and your career prospects consist solely of learning as much as you can in order to get a job in a different bank.The hours and stress will be less, and it's a job, not everyone has a job so it's better than nothing..
 
User avatar
KackToodles
Posts: 4100
Joined: August 28th, 2005, 10:46 pm

interview for independent price verification

August 7th, 2010, 6:17 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: DominicConnorOK, it might not be called "back office" but no part of the Catholic church calls itself a gang of padeophiles, doesn't stop it being so.. I agree with everything dominic said here. There is a growing trend to making all jobs sound like FO quant jobs as the MO and BO departments try to compete for bodies. I recently was shocked that the BO department of my organization wrote up and circulated a job ad titled "quant research developer" and made it sound like it was a research position for a PhD in finance. But everyone who knew anything about this position understood that it would be a back office risk management code monkey job. The person won't dealing with the real researchers or creating any strategies, ever, since she or he's going to be bogged down with 10 hours/day of monkey auditing work. The other thing I notice is that hundreds or thousands of the BO and MO office folks have CFAs, FRMs, and all kinds of coding certificates after their names... but none of these things help them to land a FO job.
Last edited by KackToodles on August 6th, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
ArthurDent
Posts: 1166
Joined: July 2nd, 2005, 4:38 pm

interview for independent price verification

August 7th, 2010, 9:14 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: KackToodles There is a growing trend to making all jobs sound like FO quant jobsAbsolutely. We seem to be in Lake Wobegon, where all the kids are above average.
 
User avatar
DominicConnor
Posts: 11684
Joined: July 14th, 2002, 3:00 am

interview for independent price verification

August 9th, 2010, 9:28 am

The FO/BO thing is an enormous distortion in the rational management of staff that doesn't really exist in any other industry.As an extreme example, being "close to the money" at a supermarket chain is one of the worst paid jobs. Since the pay gradient at banks is so steep, there is a widespread dissatisfaction amongst staff who are not there (yet).It also means that career progression for many people is not becoming better in the type of work they are doing and for which they are most suited, but moving to an area where they will get paid much more, even if it means they are doing it less well because their talents are not properly aligned with their work.Many people would have far more utility for their employer in risk or other non-FO role, but the employer is faced with the dilemma that they either promise FO or they lose good staff. This of course also leads to both higher staff turnover which is often "dealt with" by lying to the employee about his prospects for the desired FO job.This feeds back through the whole business.Good people (however you define that) will be very reluctant to take model validation or risk jobs, even at the start of their career, because they rationally believe that if you do MV, Risk, settlements et al, then your chances of moving "up", ie to FO are hurt. A good number choose to remain unemployed rather than take such jobs.
 
User avatar
twofish
Posts: 4944
Joined: February 18th, 2005, 6:51 pm

interview for independent price verification

August 10th, 2010, 12:45 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: DominicConnorThe FO/BO thing is an enormous distortion in the rational management of staff that doesn't really exist in any other industry.One thing that I like about capitalism is that for all its faults, it does correct rather rapidly. The focus on front office is something that pretty much everyone thinks is stupid, and it's in the process of correcting very rapidly. QuoteIt also means that career progression for many people is not becoming better in the type of work they are doing and for which they are most suited, but moving to an area where they will get paid much more, even if it means they are doing it less well because their talents are not properly aligned with their work.Again, things do correct.QuoteGood people (however you define that) will be very reluctant to take model validation or risk jobs, even at the start of their career, because they rationally believe that if you do MV, Risk, settlements et al, then your chances of moving "up", ie to FO are hurt. A good number choose to remain unemployed rather than take such jobs.This poses a big problem. The way that the system is correcting is taking an axe to front office and hiring massive numbers of people to beef up back office. That's where all of the hiring is happening right now. Also, looking at the way the financial system is restructuring, if you want rapid promotion, back-office is the place to be right now.
 
User avatar
KackToodles
Posts: 4100
Joined: August 28th, 2005, 10:46 pm

interview for independent price verification

August 10th, 2010, 5:44 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: twofish if you want rapid promotion, back-office is the place to be right now."promotion" is for fools. your title if worthless if you are stuck in a low paid field. who cares if you are the Managing Director of Trash Collection or the VP of Trash Collection, ha ha, you're still a garbage man.
Last edited by KackToodles on August 9th, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ABOUT WILMOTT

PW by JB

Wilmott.com has been "Serving the Quantitative Finance Community" since 2001. Continued...


Twitter LinkedIn Instagram

JOBS BOARD

JOBS BOARD

Looking for a quant job, risk, algo trading,...? Browse jobs here...


GZIP: On