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Bentley
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Posts: 97
Joined: September 14th, 2007, 3:54 pm

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 8:33 am

Just an advice for job hunters (specially for those with a few years of experience)We have been inteviewing people these days and just wanna say that It's amazing the difference between what their CV sais they know and what they really know:No!!...If somebody who sits close to you have been working on LMM it DOES NOT mean that you have "deep knowledge of LMM". Please...,In your CV just list things in which you (you means you, not your team or coworkers) have really worked on.In most of the CV's when it comes to "models knowledge" or "numerical methods" people use to list all the existing models/numerical techniques...(at least they avoid to do it in alphabetical order ) ......and, of couse, If you priced an european Call via MC for your Master Thesis you ARE NOT an expert in MC methods!!do you agree?
 
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EscapeArtist999
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Joined: May 20th, 2009, 2:49 pm

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 8:52 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ArlequantJust an advice for job hunters (specially for those with a few years of experience)We have been inteviewing people these days and just wanna say that It's amazing the difference between what their CV sais they know and what they really know:No!!...If somebody who sits close to you have been working on LMM it DOES NOT mean that you have "deep knowledge of LMM". Please...,In your CV just list things in which you (you means you, not your team or coworkers) have really worked on.In most of the CV's when it comes to "models knowledge" or "numerical methods" people use to list all the existing models/numerical techniques...(at least they avoid to do it in alphabetical order ) ......and, of couse, If you priced an european Call via MC for your Master Thesis you ARE NOT an expert in MC methods!!do you agree?Arlequant, chill dude, these guys are just trying to get a job, you need to chill a bit on the extreme meritocracy - Judge not, lest ye be judged.
 
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Bentley
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Posts: 97
Joined: September 14th, 2007, 3:54 pm

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 9:09 am

This was meant to be just a piece of advice, as that kind of attitude plays against them. you have to be honest (just say that you have some knowledge about something but do not define yourself as the master if you are not)...I think it is better to surprise the interviewer knowing things that you don't list on your CV than deceiving him/her not knowing things you list in there.
 
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Maursh
Posts: 32
Joined: August 24th, 2005, 10:16 am

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 10:27 am

I experienced a similar frustration when I was regularly interviewing bods for fairly low level jobs several years ago. I couldn't understand why someone who claimed to have umpteen years experience in equity settlement couldn't describe the trade cycle or work out simple percentages. I ended up sitting written tests for all candidates, which went some ways to filtering out the crud.However, I have since had a few sobering moments myself, in more recent years, when the boot was on the other foot. One was when the interviewer was looking for such a specific answer to a (easy) question. Knowing much more about the subject matter in question than the interviewer, I found it a rather bewildering since I wasn't coming up with her (rather dumb) answer and no doubt looked bad in her eyes. My second experience was a first round telephone interview for a role I had no background on when I had technical question fired at me, without prep or warning. The subject matter, even though on my CV was on something that I wouldn't have touched for two years minimum and was pure academic, not professional (and this should have been clear). I would have performed fine with some preparation but no doubt looked very slow compared with someone who graduated last week.If anything, as a candidate having two "bad" experiences of technical interviews is not bad going. Then again, my CV is severely understated and I don't think anyone who knows me would accuse me of "inflation" of knowledge or experience. I do, however, think that it is hard for an interviewer who is doing the same thing everyday and who has been in the same job/company for many years to gain an easy appreciation of a candidates ability to pick up a job if they have been out of that field for a while, or only have peripheral experience of it. It is frustrating, thought, that i will grant you.
 
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DominicConnor
Posts: 11684
Joined: July 14th, 2002, 3:00 am

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 10:58 am

Arlequant's inflation is a rational response to the way that recruitment happens.Most HHs are programmed to seek buzzwords, you say "Heston", and he'll type "Heston" into his database.It's obvious to anyone with a clue, that a recent MFE is not an expert in anything, and so one has to calibrate a claim like "expert in pricing European calls", as "I got good marks on that homework". Also to be fair, one finds it hard to work out precisely where one is relative to other people.Also CVs are not always read properly by hiring managers.A candidate may say "basic knowledge of volatility modelling", and get hit with questions drawn from the harder bits of Gatheral's book on the subject.So the rational response can be to bid high., and hope you don't get called, and instead get questions on things you are good at.Maursh's experience shows how de-skilling some work can be. A lot of people are what I call "even driven", things come up on their screen and they respond to them. They are smart enough to respond well, but lose their edge quickly outside the set of inputs they get.You can screw with quite smart people by asking a question that is basically if I take 10% away, then add 10% later, am I at the same number ?Not that they can't understand it, but it might have been so long that they actually did a % calculation that they forget stuff like this.Who here reckons they could do long division accurately and rapidly ?
 
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Cuchulainn
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Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 11:01 am

QuoteWho here reckons they could do long division accurately and rapidly ?This skill died in the early 60's when the "new Bourbaki math" was put on the school curriculum.
Step over the gap, not into it. Watch the space between platform and train.
http://www.datasimfinancial.com
http://www.datasim.nl
 
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Anthis
Posts: 4313
Joined: October 22nd, 2001, 10:06 am

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 11:05 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ArlequantJust an advice for job hunters (specially for those with a few years of experience)We have been inteviewing people these days and just wanna say that It's amazing the difference between what their CV sais they know and what they really know:No!!...If somebody who sits close to you have been working on LMM it DOES NOT mean that you have "deep knowledge of LMM". Please...,In your CV just list things in which you (you means you, not your team or coworkers) have really worked on.In most of the CV's when it comes to "models knowledge" or "numerical methods" people use to list all the existing models/numerical techniques...(at least they avoid to do it in alphabetical order ) ......and, of couse, If you priced an european Call via MC for your Master Thesis you ARE NOT an expert in MC methods!!do you agree?No, its their CV, not yours! They are free to write whatever they wish, even that they have been the Pope, on the contrary, it is your job to verify, confirm and validate its content. You are an interviewer and they are frustrated jobseekers. They are not supposed to make your life easier, at least not before you hire them.
 
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Anthis
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Joined: October 22nd, 2001, 10:06 am

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 11:09 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ArlequantThis was meant to be just a piece of advice, as that kind of attitude plays against them. you have to be honest (just say that you have some knowledge about something but do not define yourself as the master if you are not)...I think it is better to surprise the interviewer knowing things that you don't list on your CV than deceiving him/her not knowing things you list in there.Let me put it in another way, if my cv were just blank, it contained only my contact details, you know my modesty doesnt allow me to disclose my credentials...would you at least invite me for an interview?
 
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Bentley
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Posts: 97
Joined: September 14th, 2007, 3:54 pm

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 11:28 am

"Virtus in medium est"anyway, Anthis, ... considering your "avatar's image" it seems you are the kind of co-worker i'd like to have so i would invite you ;-P
 
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daveangel
Posts: 17031
Joined: October 20th, 2003, 4:05 pm

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 11:31 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: Arlequant"Virtus in medium est"anyway, Anthis, ... considering your "avatar's image" it seems you are the kind of co-worker i'd like to have so i would invite you ;-Pbut hwo would you know it was Anthis given a blank CV ?
knowledge comes, wisdom lingers
 
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GiusCo
Posts: 124
Joined: March 26th, 2010, 10:00 pm

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 11:56 am

As a person been on both sides (in the applied research / engineering sector) I admit my preference for introductory tests before a face to face interview.That is: pass the candidate a not too trivial task -the likes he's going to meet daily at work- and ask him to report back in one hour or two. Then discuss via phone. If both parties are happy with the results and the chat (also used as a tick for the personality boxes), then have a face to face interview.
 
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ChicagoGuy
Posts: 455
Joined: April 13th, 2007, 1:45 am

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 2:26 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteWho here reckons they could do long division accurately and rapidly ?This skill died in the early 60's when the "new Bourbaki math" was put on the school curriculum.Out of curiosity, why specifically do you say this? You mean emphasis on intuition was replaced emphasis on rigor in math?
 
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Cuchulainn
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Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 3:01 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: ChicagoGuyQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteWho here reckons they could do long division accurately and rapidly ?This skill died in the early 60's when the "new Bourbaki math" was put on the school curriculum.Out of curiosity, why specifically do you say this? You mean emphasis on intuition was replaced emphasis on rigor in math?I am glad someone asked this question It was my answer to Dominic's question.I remember getting both forms (old/new), for example we got graph and group theory (very interesting) in my early teens as well as the old calculus/arithmetic stuff. What I noticed about the former was many diagrams were needed to motivate them while the latter was more methodical. We had books of log tables. Am not saying one is better than the other, but a mix is needed imo.An example from close to home - have to be tactful - is when one apply a formula like a recipe but when it breaks it is very difficult to analyse what went wrong.I am sure a big of kids use a calculator to do multiplication. Don't know if this answer makes sense; idea: less internet searching, more pencil and paper
Last edited by Cuchulainn on August 23rd, 2010, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Step over the gap, not into it. Watch the space between platform and train.
http://www.datasimfinancial.com
http://www.datasim.nl
 
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DominicConnor
Posts: 11684
Joined: July 14th, 2002, 3:00 am

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 4:12 pm

I use Excel to teach DCFC 2.0 and 2.1 arithmetic, actually it's a great teaching tool, if you handle it right.Better that the shit they get taught at school by staff who see VBA as black magic, and no I'm not exaggerating.We're currently just starting on probability distributions, Excel allows a kid to play with these with only minimal help.So DCFC 2.0 now knows that the probability of throwing a 7 with two dice is a lot bigger than a 2, and yes I've explained how to make money from other's ignorance of this fact That last bit is important, but it really doesn't matter what the 'use' is for an idea, just so long as there is one.Thus random walk is not going to be taught in terms of diffusion but the locus within which a monster might be find if you use random numbers to simulate it's behaviour.I guess most of you know that I never learned long division until I was 19 ?
 
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traderjoe1976
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Joined: May 19th, 2006, 9:50 am

Curriculum inflation

August 24th, 2010, 9:02 pm

Generally, if you ask Math questions the person who is fresh from a PhD program will perform better than someone who has a PhD and a few years experience. Does this make the fresh PhD a better candidate than the experienced person who also has a PhD?
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