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EscapeArtist999
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February 17th, 2012, 3:25 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: AnomanderisQuoteOriginally posted by: frenchXQuoteYou need to get knowledge, and then "grow" yourself to the point where you can apply the knowledge in a way that society values/needs, THEN it becomes worth it. I have never heard the argument "I work in quant finance because the society needs it". Just ask to the victims of the subprime crisis, to the ones who lost their job, their house and their retirement plan due to finance and tell them that the society needed it.True. But there were two points, so let's try the second one. Does society value it? Trust me, it does, otherwise the job wouldn't exist. What sort of question is that? No base, no argument, just a rather cynical question. - I am implying that you sound kindof academic, that you're the sort of person who loves doing geek shit, and you probably report to a bunch of idiots ultimately - call it what you like a straw man, an ad hominem attack whatever - why not crawl back to academia.
 
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Anomanderis
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February 17th, 2012, 3:40 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: EscapeArtist999QuoteOriginally posted by: AnomanderisQuoteOriginally posted by: frenchXQuoteYou need to get knowledge, and then "grow" yourself to the point where you can apply the knowledge in a way that society values/needs, THEN it becomes worth it. I have never heard the argument "I work in quant finance because the society needs it". Just ask to the victims of the subprime crisis, to the ones who lost their job, their house and their retirement plan due to finance and tell them that the society needed it.True. But there were two points, so let's try the second one. Does society value it? Trust me, it does, otherwise the job wouldn't exist. What sort of question is that? No base, no argument, just a rather cynical question. - I am implying that you sound kindof academic, that you're the sort of person who loves doing geek shit, and you probably report to a bunch of idiots ultimately - call it what you like a straw man, an ad hominem attack whatever - why not crawl back to academia.Crawl back? Doing geek shit?Dude, if you don't like geeks, why are you on this forum anyway?You know what, I'm done with this discussion. I'm on here to improve myself and to rub minds with people of a certain mindset, not to engage in this sort of pointless mudslinging.But you really need to work on your attacks, many here consider the term "academia" something to be proud of.
 
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EscapeArtist999
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February 17th, 2012, 4:31 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: AnomanderisQuoteOriginally posted by: EscapeArtist999QuoteOriginally posted by: AnomanderisQuoteOriginally posted by: frenchXQuoteYou need to get knowledge, and then "grow" yourself to the point where you can apply the knowledge in a way that society values/needs, THEN it becomes worth it. I have never heard the argument "I work in quant finance because the society needs it". Just ask to the victims of the subprime crisis, to the ones who lost their job, their house and their retirement plan due to finance and tell them that the society needed it.True. But there were two points, so let's try the second one. Does society value it? Trust me, it does, otherwise the job wouldn't exist. What sort of question is that? No base, no argument, just a rather cynical question. - I am implying that you sound kindof academic, that you're the sort of person who loves doing geek shit, and you probably report to a bunch of idiots ultimately - call it what you like a straw man, an ad hominem attack whatever - why not crawl back to academia.Crawl back? Doing geek shit?Dude, if you don't like geeks, why are you on this forum anyway?You know what, I'm done with this discussion. I'm on here to improve myself and to rub minds with people of a certain mindset, not to engage in this sort of pointless mudslinging.But you really need to work on your attacks, many here consider the term "academia" something to be proud of.You just made my day! Thanks! have a fun weekend.
Last edited by EscapeArtist999 on February 16th, 2012, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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frenchX
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February 17th, 2012, 6:06 pm

Be cool guys. It leads to nothing to kill each other. @ Anomanderis: I'm glad to see that you love coding and that you love your job. The best way to fulfill one's life is to enjoy his work as a passion. But that's maybe 5 % of the quants. Most of them find their job fucking boring and do that only for money.
 
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capafan2
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February 17th, 2012, 6:17 pm

In the end its just a job. Most people hate their jobs as they grow senior. There is more to lose at each turn and it is no fun having to watch your back at all times. The younglings tend to like their jobs more as pats on the back are more common. Promises are made freely and cheaply and it is easy to sucker to newbie with praise instead of a raise.
 
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tu160
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February 17th, 2012, 7:08 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: EscapeArtist999TU - guys like you will always end up being exploited by the savvy - enjoy sitting around with your cool GPUs, data mining, star drek... It's not like I am really trying to prove anything At some point you have to figure out what is your competitive edge: people skills, big picture view, rich family, ivy league mba, excel, c++ etc... Yes there are lucky fools, so what's new about it? I really don't want to cite Taleb here, everybody reads him.If your people skills and big picture view really give you competitive edge - good for you. We are just not all that talented or lucky. On another hand the number of broke people with "people skills and big picture" in denial is astonishing. And because of easy availability of credit today they could stay in denial even longer.
Last edited by tu160 on February 16th, 2012, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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capafan2
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February 17th, 2012, 7:20 pm

QuoteOn another hand the number of broke people with "people skills and big picture" in denial is astonishing. And because of easy availability of credit today they could stay in denial even longer.survivorship bias at play here. Most such people are lost in hopeless jobs. They add no value to the labor market and wonder why they cannot be as successful as their equally useless counterparts in successful positions. Today morning I heard of a story of one such success story (ex I should say) who got kicked out recently from his job. He is having a hard time finding another one. He was a textbook example of a socio-path - sauve, charming and useless. In the end as DC says it is the "Area under the curve". To maximize it you need useful skills and there is nothing glamorous about useful skills. It there was it would not remain glamorous for long as more and more people would flood that market until the glamor is driven out.
 
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tu160
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February 17th, 2012, 7:54 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: capafan2QuoteOn another hand the number of broke people with "people skills and big picture" in denial is astonishing. And because of easy availability of credit today they could stay in denial even longer.survivorship bias at play here. Most such people are lost in hopeless jobs. They add no value to the labor market and wonder why they cannot be as successful as their equally useless counterparts in successful positions. Today morning I heard of a story of one such success story (ex I should say) who got kicked out recently from his job. He is having a hard time finding another one. He was a textbook example of a socio-path - sauve, charming and useless. In the end as DC says it is the "Area under the curve". To maximize it you need useful skills and there is nothing glamorous about useful skills. It there was it would not remain glamorous for long as more and more people would flood that market until the glamor is driven out.True and not true. In general all this mantras about adding value and free riders are so old. With technology development we have more and more people who just can't add value because of education and IQ limitations. Society as a whole has to discuss this problem and find sustainable fix. On another hand if we are just bullshiting them with "everyone is special" we just kick the can down the road.
Last edited by tu160 on February 16th, 2012, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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capafan2
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February 17th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Quote Society as a whole has to discuss this problem and find sustainable fix. On another hand if we just bullshiting them with "everyone is special" we just kick the can down the road.What do you mean? Can you elaborate a bit. Was that last comment about "everyone is special" anything to do with the typical education system?I do think that the typical hierarchical structure of most organizations rewards longevity. A lot of organizations sort of acknowledge it with flatter structures and start-ups practically do not have it. Speaking of society, once you take away the rewards for just "bossing around", a lot of things fall in place. In a start-up there is only one reward and either everyone wins or no one wins. In large organizations there are way too many inefficiencies. Or maybe I am just rambling here.
 
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tu160
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February 17th, 2012, 9:49 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: capafan2Quote Society as a whole has to discuss this problem and find sustainable fix. On another hand if we just bullshiting them with "everyone is special" we just kick the can down the road.What do you mean? Can you elaborate a bit. Was that last comment about "everyone is special" anything to do with the typical education system?Essentially modern society is trying to downplay the importance of hard quantitative skills. All this nerd bashing in media etc... As a result many young people put their intelligence into useless degrees and literally can't pay their bills. I think we have to be more honest. If you can't do math it's not ok, it's bad.
Last edited by tu160 on February 16th, 2012, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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capafan2
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February 17th, 2012, 10:07 pm

QuoteEssentially modern society is trying to downplay the importance of hard quantitative skills. All this nerd bashing in media etc... As a result many young people put their intelligence into useless degrees and literally can't pay their bills. I think we have to be more honest. If you can't do math it's not ok, it's bad.This does seem like a relatively recent phenomenon. The whole MBA culture picked up in the late 90's. When I started my career in the late 90's most senior management were "engineers" (it was a massive engineering firm) who rose through the ranks. That is not the typical case anymore.
Last edited by capafan2 on February 17th, 2012, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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GiusCo
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February 18th, 2012, 3:25 pm

Generally burn-out techs and distressed moneymakers have a shot at art and make a serious hobby of it. You there yet?
 
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traderjoe1976
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February 18th, 2012, 5:23 pm

I think that Escape has Math PhD from Top 10 school in USA. He applied for MBA last year and got properly rejected by all the top ranked schools. That is why he is bitter and curses all quants as slaves to the management masters. But the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. There are many Math PhDs and also many MBAs who got properly f*cked in the recent recession. The only areas which were hiring during the recession were IT, sales, and risk. Everybody else was f*cked.
Last edited by traderjoe1976 on February 17th, 2012, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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CrashedMint
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February 18th, 2012, 9:17 pm

Wow, lots of emotions going on here but I am not bored enough to read through 3 pages. Anyone have an executive summary? PS: "I think that Escape has Math PhD from Top 10 school in USA. He applied for MBA last year and got properly rejected by all the top ranked schools." -- Why would any PhD do a MBA?
Last edited by CrashedMint on February 17th, 2012, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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bearish
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February 19th, 2012, 12:27 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: CrashedMintWow, lots of emotions going on here but I am not bored enough to read through 3 pages. Anyone have an executive summary? PS: "I think that Escape has Math PhD from Top 10 school in USA. He applied for MBA last year and got properly rejected by all the top ranked schools." -- Why would any PhD do a MBA?An MBA is pretty much orthogonal to a PhD, even a business school PhD. So if you want to enter the "MBA world" of general management, it may well make sense, even if the intellectual level of what you would be studying is an order or magnitude or two below what you have already been through. Just don't make the mistake of believing that just because it is not as hard as Einstein's field equations it is probably trivial and not worth studying. While going back for an MBA may in fact feel like an admission of failure for many PhDs, if the person has the right kind of attitude and personality, the combination of PhD depth with MBA breadth can be quite powerful.