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EscapeArtist999
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September 7th, 2012, 11:48 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ElysianEagleQuoteOriginally posted by: Cuchulainnyep, that was excellent, EA. Points 1,2,3 were bang on. For point 3, I would append most of EU, with the possible exception of Germany where it is still respectable to be an engineer.good observation. where i work (here in the US) most developers are foreigners, with very few native born americans. ironically, i've noticed that those of my ethnicity that were born here, rarely ever go into s/w engineering, even tho the field is practically dominated by those of my ilk.i think the generally anti-intellectual nature of US culture, coupled with the emphasis on superficiality which leads younger folk to aim for the glamorous, management positions definitely plays a role.It's funny that you mention this: i've noticed that those of my ethnicity that were born here, rarely ever go into s/w engineering - I was at a conference in '07 and ran into Michael Milken (yes THE Michael Milken) - and there was an informal discussion amoungst a small group. During this discussion the came up that financial services adds more to the economy than it takes in terms of brain-drain (which if funds are generally flowing to well selected projects is a fair point - IF) it was then that something struck me - which I said: In all my years of being a math grad student - with the dept, the few conferences I'd been to, I had never met an Asian-American Math PhD student - I had met many from Asia (in fact they were usually better than me, annoying, lol) but never any that had grown up in the USA. That said, I kjewof many going into IB/MC from the undergraduate student body, and had met many at the school's MBA programme's mixers - yes the typical grad student crasing a party that i wasn't invited to. LOL. What I find most ironic about the situation in the USA is that the country was built on the premise that you work hard and get to live the good life (which in all fairness even now is better than many places - i.e. no-one has shoulder callossed skin from hauling sulfur for 3c an hour) and well the popular culture has drifted very far away.One can see this at the earlier stages of education.Study hard at school Get into Ivy leagueGo to IB/MC or professional school - Med (and to a lessor extent these days, Law)Basically the idea is to trick (or tip heavily) the doorman so you can be in an elitist club - anything tht somebody can learn on the web has no cache, it may help you get some bread, but that's it. Being in an exclusive club... wll...Many of the undergrads I taught while in grad school had zero interest in much of what was taught. Alluding to the above their Ivy League degree was their ticket to higher marginal pay per unit of labour. And that's really it - managers do get a higher marginal unit of pay than do laborours (technical folk) - generally at least.Now I realise you could argue that these managers ar able to get 1 + 1 + 1 = 5 i.e. more out of the staff, and maybe that is true for some. Often it is the case that the laborour is bound by other things - visas. low self esteem, social awkwardness and the same sort of manipulation and browbeating that would have gone on at school happens again.The zeitgeist of the USA/UK has very much become that everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it - and the less something seems like labour the more people covet it.
 
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capafan2
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September 7th, 2012, 6:18 pm

QuoteThe zeitgeist of the USA/UK has very much become that everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it - and the less something seems like labour the more people covet it.It worked for a while during the booming finance years and the party is drying up. There will always be people who will still succeed at it but most of those data points suffer from surviorship bias. Most of the generation you are alluding to have no skills and most will remain stuck in ho-hum middle management careers of the types found the top few consulting firms in the West. They will wear a suit and a tie and perform activities that good well run companies do not want to do - like create some fancy documents and excel sheets. Very soon there will be a lot of people with my skin color raised in this country trying for the same jobs with the fond hope of becoming partners in a Big Consulting firm.
Last edited by capafan2 on September 6th, 2012, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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capafan2
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September 7th, 2012, 6:22 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: ElysianEagleQuoteOriginally posted by: Cuchulainnyep, that was excellent, EA. Points 1,2,3 were bang on. For point 3, I would append most of EU, with the possible exception of Germany where it is still respectable to be an engineer.good observation. where i work (here in the US) most developers are foreigners, with very few native born americans. ironically, i've noticed that those of my ethnicity that were born here, rarely ever go into s/w engineering, even tho the field is practically dominated by those of my ilk.i think the generally anti-intellectual nature of US culture, coupled with the emphasis on superficiality which leads younger folk to aim for the glamorous, management positions definitely plays a role.Nothing anti-intellectual about it. When I came to the USA in late 90's there were plenty of white senior programmers and they were a proud lot. Over time a lot of programming jobs went to India and China and everyone convinced themselves that these jobs are sweaty smelly jobs and people avoided S/W engineering degrees. Still these jobs are very well paid. In the Bay Area you can make close to $180k - $200k if you serious Programmer with all the latest skills. But the sad part about the generation in their 20's is that they would rather make $100k being a glorified clerk and an excel monkey than $180k being a programmer. There is plenty of enduring money in software only if you ignored the status aspect of it.
 
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capafan2
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September 7th, 2012, 6:37 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: EscapeArtist999QuoteOriginally posted by: capafan2The real reason is packaged products. You buy off the shelf products from Oracle and big cos and tweak it using men in suits. Suddenly men in suits become more powerful. Where I work any development is frowned upon. Everyone wants to be an architect. They draw boxes in visio, occasionally animate them using powerpoints. You have lines going all over, stacked boxes like there is no tomorrow and then focus on strategy all the time. All this is a product of the past 10 years. It worked well but the party is ending. A lot of projects these days (the good ones) are around mining massive amounts of data. Screw the status aspect of it, but this stuff cannot be commoditized. You need solid programmers to do that. The problem is if you are processing a terabyte scale data using commodity servers on a daily basis, you cannot afford to be inefficient. Ofcourse there is no status in it. But money there is.But how many positions like this exist Capa?Quite a few and they are increasing rapidly in number - not necessarily in finance. Two main enablers - Apache Hadoop (Open Source version of Google's Map Reduce) and Amazon Cloud. Both are essential if you want to do something custom with massive amounts of data or text. Today you can rent as many servers as you need for a few hours and process massive amounts of data for as little as 33 cents per machine per hour. Large number of start-ups are based on this theme and there is a huge market around creating a set of products around this idea so that men in suits can handle terabytes of data in short time. There is a huge market for IT skills outside finance and it is quite interesting.
 
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rmax
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September 7th, 2012, 6:53 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnA good book IMO if you are serious about s/wGreat book and great person. Exchanged some e-mails with him around estimation. He had some good ideas around it.
 
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ArthurDent
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September 23rd, 2012, 8:58 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: capafan2Nothing anti-intellectual about it. When I came to the USA in late 90's there were plenty of white senior programmers and they were a proud lot. Over time a lot of programming jobs went to India and China and everyone convinced themselves that these jobs are sweaty smelly jobs and people avoided S/W engineering degrees. Still these jobs are very well paid. In the Bay Area you can make close to $180k - $200k if you serious Programmer with all the latest skills. But the sad part about the generation in their 20's is that they would rather make $100k being a glorified clerk and an excel monkey than $180k being a programmer. There is plenty of enduring money in software only if you ignored the status aspect of it.It is arguable that the utility function that most people are optimizing is relative rather than absolute money/status. So the choice is quite rational, given that the 100k Excel monkey clerking in finance has a long tail that goes into the millions, as compared to the Bay Area engineer. Well they both do, but the finance roles have a higher probability mass in the tails than the s/w engineer roles.
Last edited by ArthurDent on September 22nd, 2012, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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GiusCo
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September 23rd, 2012, 10:57 pm

US / UK actually did the "menial" job and the "dirty" work during the Industrial Revolution in the early XIX Century. In addition, they won WW II in mid XX Century and Finlandized many countries in the Europe and Asia. On the contrary, Communism / Fascism collapsed everywhere. US are even Finlandizing China just now.Every job in the West is worth at least 10 times more than it is paid. Who gets that money? First were managers, now only the very top Managers. The spread between the salary of a CEO / Board of Directors and the salary of the lowest-ranked cleaner is 1000:1. This is destroying the faith in Capitalism here. The party is drying up, as someone wrote in this topic before. You cannot think you're smart and that the remaining 99.9% of people are dumb, because you're enslaving your own people, not only former enemies (immigrants and all the dumb monkeys very good at something other than managing people).Socially speaking, why on Earth westerners should still undergo that way? Is it better to earn £200k and live as a slave, "working hard" for someone else (why? why? why?) or earn £20k and manage your life 24/7? Give your personal answer to this and be placed accordingly. In addition, Web 2.0 is democratizing the world, even theocracies and closed-rank oligarchies cannot contain that. If a get a psycho shouting at me in my job place (where I'm the boss), I punch him in the face. I'm poor, but living my life and I'm a Westerner. If I were from some different place, I would still be risking my head due to my personal belief and attitude. That's why so many people come to West, get some good money (compared to homeland and compared to many locals) and feel good, but you're still the slaves to dumb local kids that are better connected than you.
 
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capafan2
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September 24th, 2012, 11:31 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ArthurDentQuoteOriginally posted by: capafan2Nothing anti-intellectual about it. When I came to the USA in late 90's there were plenty of white senior programmers and they were a proud lot. Over time a lot of programming jobs went to India and China and everyone convinced themselves that these jobs are sweaty smelly jobs and people avoided S/W engineering degrees. Still these jobs are very well paid. In the Bay Area you can make close to $180k - $200k if you serious Programmer with all the latest skills. But the sad part about the generation in their 20's is that they would rather make $100k being a glorified clerk and an excel monkey than $180k being a programmer. There is plenty of enduring money in software only if you ignored the status aspect of it.It is arguable that the utility function that most people are optimizing is relative rather than absolute money/status. So the choice is quite rational, given that the 100k Excel monkey clerking in finance has a long tail that goes into the millions, as compared to the Bay Area engineer. Well they both do, but the finance roles have a higher probability mass in the tails than the s/w engineer roles.I know more rich IT folks who went on their own than rich finance folks. It may be only reflective of the crowd I hang out with. However, I believe finance looks cooler and does a better job of marketing itself to impressionable minds. Also it is mental bias at work. Everyone believes that they will make a big shot MD. So getting there is only a matter of time since everyone also believes early on in their career that layoff's happen to lazy and incompetent people and hence will not happen to them. The path to riches in IT is not that straightforward and hence that long tail despite its existence is deemed less achievable. Most people in their younger years assume growing in a large corp is matter of time but are more realistic about starting and delivering on a business on their own.
 
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traderjoe1976
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September 24th, 2012, 2:07 pm

I know a lot of people in IT who made millions by starting their own company. Basically, they start a company with almost zero investment. Then, they bring Java Developers and .NET developers and C++ developers from India with 7 - 12 years experience. These guys are happy to work for $60 per hour. The client is happy to pay $90 per hour because Deloitte and Accenture and IBM charge $200 - $250 per hour. So these guys who start their won companies are basically just placing these people on projects and running the payroll and making millions of dollars with very little effort.
 
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mynetself
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September 24th, 2012, 2:55 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: ArthurDentQuoteOriginally posted by: capafan2Nothing anti-intellectual about it. When I came to the USA in late 90's there were plenty of white senior programmers and they were a proud lot. Over time a lot of programming jobs went to India and China and everyone convinced themselves that these jobs are sweaty smelly jobs and people avoided S/W engineering degrees. Still these jobs are very well paid. In the Bay Area you can make close to $180k - $200k if you serious Programmer with all the latest skills. But the sad part about the generation in their 20's is that they would rather make $100k being a glorified clerk and an excel monkey than $180k being a programmer. There is plenty of enduring money in software only if you ignored the status aspect of it.It is arguable that the utility function that most people are optimizing is relative rather than absolute money/status. So the choice is quite rational, given that the 100k Excel monkey clerking in finance has a long tail that goes into the millions, as compared to the Bay Area engineer. Well they both do, but the finance roles have a higher probability mass in the tails than the s/w engineer roles.Highlight mine: Are you sure about that? Given the zillions of "MBA drones" being produced every year in unis and business schools, I wouldn't bet bet much on it.
 
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EscapeArtist999
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September 24th, 2012, 3:32 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: traderjoe1976I know a lot of people in IT who made millions by starting their own company. Basically, they start a company with almost zero investment. Then, they bring Java Developers and .NET developers and C++ developers from India with 7 - 12 years experience. These guys are happy to work for $60 per hour. The client is happy to pay $90 per hour because Deloitte and Accenture and IBM charge $200 - $250 per hour. So these guys who start their won companies are basically just placing these people on projects and running the payroll and making millions of dollars with very little effort.So why aren't you do this TJ?
 
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capafan2
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September 24th, 2012, 7:29 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: EscapeArtist999QuoteOriginally posted by: traderjoe1976I know a lot of people in IT who made millions by starting their own company. Basically, they start a company with almost zero investment. Then, they bring Java Developers and .NET developers and C++ developers from India with 7 - 12 years experience. These guys are happy to work for $60 per hour. The client is happy to pay $90 per hour because Deloitte and Accenture and IBM charge $200 - $250 per hour. So these guys who start their won companies are basically just placing these people on projects and running the payroll and making millions of dollars with very little effort.So why aren't you do this TJ?Because that ship has sailed. It is too competitive now especially with the tighter immigration laws. Earlier you got an H1B for the duration of 3 years (with extensions in the same ball-park). Today you need a client letter and the duration of your visa is the same as your project. This makes it very difficult for small time body shoppers to convince kids to join the until they have a long term contract as a prime contractor. Besides everyone thinks of you a low-life pimp, ok - rich low-life pimp and worse still you may not be that rich. So it is a triple whammy, people hate you for being a low-life and also hate you for being a rich low-life and you are not even rich.Also the effort is not that minimal. And I worry that so many people will curse you that eventually a bad disease will hit you and you will die in misery and pain...or you will burn in the seventh circle of hell.
 
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traderjoe1976
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September 25th, 2012, 2:33 pm

Actually, this is true. Many of the people who work for these bodyshopping companies regard their owners as low-life pimps. But these guys are driving Toyota Camrys wheras the owner is driving a Mercedes Benz and has two more Porsches parked in his garage.
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