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albertmills
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 24th, 2013, 8:12 pm

Hi,I've read that computer programing is a field in which the great are way better than the average, and get rewarded for their skills since it's a meritocracy. See the link below.True?If it's true, why do so many people on these forums complain about IT. http://www.slate.com/articles/technolog ... ernet.html
 
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tagoma
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 24th, 2013, 8:58 pm

QuoteJeff Dean was forced to invent asynchronous APIs one day when he optimized a function so that it returned before it was invoked.LOL
 
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Cuchulainn
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 24th, 2013, 9:03 pm

Is software becoming sexy (again)? 30 years ago it was Real Programmers work for Los Alamos National Laboratory, writing atomic bomb simulations to run on Cray I supercomputers.Real Programmers work for the National Security Agency, decoding Russian transmissions.It was largely due to the efforts of thousands of Real Programmers working for NASA that our boys got to the moon and back before the Russkies.The computers in the Space Shuttle were programmed by Real Programmers.Real Programmers are at work for Boeing designing the operation systems for cruise missiles.
Last edited by Cuchulainn on January 23rd, 2013, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
65000
 
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LTrain
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 24th, 2013, 9:21 pm

Google is a software company.. totally different...How much respect does a software-puke get in a law firm, an auto parts store, or any non-software company??
 
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Hansi
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 24th, 2013, 9:30 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: albertmillsIf it's true, why do so many people on these forums complain about IT. Because the only programmers in banking IT are generally average? The really good ones go somewhere else either because they've heard about how bad it tends to be there, or have experienced it themselves before.Most of my friends who are really good programmers either work for established software companies or at startups. There are exceptions where some have gone into banking but mainly because they've been at it for years and have fairly senior positions now and they are certain they'll take a big pay cut if they go somewhere else.
 
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ElysianEagle
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 25th, 2013, 7:16 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnIs software becoming sexy (again)? 30 years ago it was Real Programmers work for Los Alamos National Laboratory, writing atomic bomb simulations to run on Cray I supercomputers.Real Programmers work for the National Security Agency, decoding Russian transmissions.It was largely due to the efforts of thousands of Real Programmers working for NASA that our boys got to the moon and back before the Russkies.The computers in the Space Shuttle were programmed by Real Programmers.Real Programmers are at work for Boeing designing the operation systems for cruise missiles.Real Programmers code in binary.
 
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bluetrin
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 25th, 2013, 8:09 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: HansiQuoteOriginally posted by: albertmillsIf it's true, why do so many people on these forums complain about IT. Because the only programmers in banking IT are generally average? The really good ones go somewhere else either because they've heard about how bad it tends to be there, or have experienced it themselves before.Most of my friends who are really good programmers either work for established software companies or at startups. There are exceptions where some have gone into banking but mainly because they've been at it for years and have fairly senior positions now and they are certain they'll take a big pay cut if they go somewhere else.Quant devs tend to be better at IT and maths than your IT department in a bank though.
 
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rmax
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 25th, 2013, 8:13 am

Programming is a sub-set of IT. Good programmers are hard to come by. But what makes a good programmer? I have not read the article - my belief is that in most software focused firms you can "hack". My defintion of hacking in this case is where you have genius programmers who can invent very smart solutions to problems and deliver them.... Most start-ups are basiaclly this kind of thing. So if this was in IB I would happy right?Wrong.This is only part of the story. The 80/20 rule means that with the hack solution you will get 80% there with only 20% of the effort. The problem is that it will only have 20% of the functionality required and that will take another 80% effort to deliver. So when it comes to solution delivery there are a number of things that are not considered. A number that I have run up against this YEAR already:- security questions- release process (x2)- capacity- lack of documentation- lack of communication+ some others I don't want to divulge.and we are only 25 days....IT as a profession has got to get more professional. It has got to become an engineering discipline. IT also does not do well with the management of the client, and clients need management. And we are now in a vicious circle. Clients know IT are going to cost lots, and don't believe IT at all when it comes down to delivery. So projects are in effect set-up to fail.A lot of this applies to internal IT. Small IT vendors can be better, but then they have spent a lot of money on engineering a solution so a firm's IT department don't believe the numbers as they can do it for half the price - except they can't....
 
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ashkar
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 25th, 2013, 8:59 am

I generally split s/w jobs into application dev and library/systems dev. Library developers tend to be much better programmers. Application developers tend to have more computing soft skills like GUI and they know not to waste time thinking about performance etc and get their projects delivered faster and get promoted.The bad image of IT in banks in my view is largely due to IT grad programs. They're not looking for programmers so most grads end up doing support type roles. The good/higher paid/interesting programming jobs have a 'quant' stuck in front of the title.
 
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rmax
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 25th, 2013, 10:19 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ashkarI generally split s/w jobs into application dev and library/systems dev. Library developers tend to be much better programmers. Application developers tend to have more computing soft skills like GUI and they know not to waste time thinking about performance etc and get their projects delivered faster and get promoted.The bad image of IT in banks in my view is largely due to IT grad programs. They're not looking for programmers so most grads end up doing support type roles. The good/higher paid/interesting programming jobs have a 'quant' stuck in front of the title.Yep.
 
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capafan2
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 25th, 2013, 12:47 pm

QuoteQuant devs tend to be better at IT and maths than your IT department in a bank though.This is what I call self-certified and self-pleasured. Your comment is wrong by the way and has no relation to reality. A good programmer is everywhere and a bad programmer is everywhere. But a vast majority of Quant Dev's are also Excel Monkeys. They certainly do not qualify.
 
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capafan2
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 25th, 2013, 12:53 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: ashkarI generally split s/w jobs into application dev and library/systems dev. Library developers tend to be much better programmers. Application developers tend to have more computing soft skills like GUI and they know not to waste time thinking about performance etc and get their projects delivered faster and get promoted.The bad image of IT in banks in my view is largely due to IT grad programs. They're not looking for programmers so most grads end up doing support type roles. The good/higher paid/interesting programming jobs have a 'quant' stuck in front of the title.When I worked in IT I never got the feeling that people were bad programmers. Sure they all (including me) did support but they were very good programmers but not very respected due to being in IT. Most quant dev's were just glorified IT especially those with the term "Infrastructure" prefixed to their title. And the programmers were invariably overworked. People expect IT staff to be at their beck and call. If I put Quants are everyone's beck and call they will come off as idiots every now and then.I recently met a compliance guy (seriously a middle office compliance monkey) who made disparaging remarks about IT to my face. I told him that middle office people in banks are like "Other backward Castes" in India. They think they are closer to the "Upper Caste" but the "Upper Caste" thinks there are only two castes "Upper" and "Lower". As such they are scumbag clerks who have an identity crises with re-course expect Wall-Street when they get kicked out. He was deeply offended as I de-panted him in front of his wife and kids.
 
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bluetrin
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 25th, 2013, 1:14 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: capafan2QuoteQuant devs tend to be better at IT and maths than your IT department in a bank though.This is what I call self-certified and self-pleasured. Your comment is wrong by the way and has no relation to reality. A good programmer is everywhere and a bad programmer is everywhere. But a vast majority of Quant Dev's are also Excel Monkeys. They certainly do not qualify.You are right about something: I should have said, from my own experience and/or in my opinion.However I do not belong to either category ... at least technically so your comment is also wrong. Maybe you had a different experience, but at least acknowledge that I could have a different experience from yours. The best IT people I know do not work in banking in my experience. (this may or may not be the same for you as well)
Last edited by bluetrin on January 24th, 2013, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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traderjoe1976
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computer programming - meritocracy?

January 25th, 2013, 2:33 pm

I have come across two types of IT developers:1. The people who have Masters / PhD in Computer Science from good schools like CMU, MIT, Stanford, etc. These people tend to be incredibly intelligent and highly knowledgeable. Most of them are working in firms like Google, Facebook, HP, Microsoft, etc. A few of them are working in HFT / Algotrading. These people can drive innovation and regularly produce innovative products and ideas.2. The rest of the developers. These people tend to be of average intelligence with decent tech skills and sometimes decent Math skills. The can produce regular IT application systems at fairly low cost, but probably do not have the capability to produce innovative products.
 
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jointy
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Joined: October 1st, 2009, 11:12 am

computer programming - meritocracy?

January 25th, 2013, 2:47 pm

If you take a step back and look at dev at banking and for systems in Boeing/NASA then you can say that their goals are subtly different. Banking IT is more about short lifespan software and quick turn around solutions (stability/efficiency are of course assumed). While at Boeing/NASA (or other product driven firms) they spend considerable amount of time in design, architecture, agree upon some standards, stick to them and there is constant review during phases of the development process as their products are assumed to have considerably higher lifespan. Few teams in IT in banking spend their time on establishing such frameworks but most teams work of getting the hacks on top of these frameworks. The universe is very fast changing for banking to afford months of time in bringing out a software product/change to support day to day business. So very likely that someone who is good at programming would NOT truly like banking IT as it's not a time well spent either on software engineering or writing code that stands test of time.
Last edited by jointy on January 24th, 2013, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.