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Cuchulainn
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July 11th, 2013, 2:14 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: HansiI believe this was one of those, what do you call them.... oh yes... jokes.This was very serious, except #1.
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albertmills
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July 11th, 2013, 4:32 pm

why do you want to work as what amounts to IT support for some big corporation? Launch a startup. Sure there's a good chance you'll fail, and a small chance you'll succeed, but doing software for a lareg corp whose main product is not software means the chance of fail is 100%, as you're not even trying.
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July 12th, 2013, 11:45 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: HansiI believe this was one of those, what do you call them.... oh yes... jokes.This was very serious, except #1.Top 30 ain't bad for a language that is barely in its puberty era.
 
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July 13th, 2013, 6:49 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: ChicagoGuyQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: HansiI believe this was one of those, what do you call them.... oh yes... jokes.This was very serious, except #1.Top 30 ain't bad for a language that is barely in its puberty era.But what kind of adult will it be? I would have called it D++. just another language?what is the compelling reason for adoption?
Last edited by Cuchulainn on July 12th, 2013, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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July 18th, 2013, 10:40 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: ChicagoGuyQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: HansiI believe this was one of those, what do you call them.... oh yes... jokes.This was very serious, except #1.Top 30 ain't bad for a language that is barely in its puberty era.But what kind of adult will it be? I would have called it D++. just another language?what is the compelling reason for adoption?It will grow up to be a homeless person
 
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Lagrene
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July 24th, 2013, 11:47 am

Now learning Python (Python The Hard Way) and C# (Learning C# 3.0 - Jesse Liberty)...are there any Python/C# qualifications worth taking? Any other recommeded texts?...thx
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July 24th, 2013, 1:37 pm

I personally would not spend time learning an additional imperative language. I would invest time in trying to work out code with a new approach - pure functional in Haskell, OCAML, F#, for example. I guess that brings more challenges and insights, a fresh new perspective.http://www.wilmott.com/messageview.cfm? ... SGDBTABLE=
 
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July 25th, 2013, 7:48 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: chocolatemoneyI personally would not spend time learning an additional imperative language. I would invest time in trying to work out code with a new approach - pure functional in Haskell, OCAML, F#, for example. I guess that brings more challenges and insights, a fresh new perspective.http://www.wilmott.com/messageview.cfm? ... GDBTABLE=I think this is a good piece of advice. What is your view on Scala, Hadoop etc.?Even now you see FP features entering C++ 11 and C#. FP is maths in code, yes?
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July 25th, 2013, 12:22 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: LagreneNow learning Python (Python The Hard Way) and C# (Learning C# 3.0 - Jesse Liberty)...are there any Python/C# qualifications worth taking? Any other recommeded texts?...thxTry the SciKitLearn library when using Python - http://scikit-learn.org/stable/ . The documentation is excellent and with the documentation of each method there is a math paper attached which discusses each method. Given that you like Math you will have a context to learning python.Functional languages are cool but usually go with more context. If you are learning Scala it usually goes hand in hand with Java. F# with .NET. The only place functional techniques mattered to was when using List Comprehensions in Python or generally using R.
 
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chocolatemoney
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July 26th, 2013, 11:43 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: chocolatemoneyI personally would not spend time learning an additional imperative language. I would invest time in trying to work out code with a new approach - pure functional in Haskell, OCAML, F#, for example. I guess that brings more challenges and insights, a fresh new perspective.http://www.wilmott.com/messageview.cfm? ... GDBTABLE=I think this is a good piece of advice. What is your view on Scala, Hadoop etc.?Even now you see FP features entering C++ 11 and C#. FP is maths in code, yes?In Switzerland, probably because of the role and proximity of the EPFL, Scala has been growing quickly.Java will/is add(ing) FP features, going along the same path took by C++ 11 and C#. Let's see if this will slow down Scala growth.I think FP goes beyond the analogy with mathematical functions. FP in my view is the concept of immutability and a design where the building blocks of your code are function where you have an input and an output, and SW is the composition of those. A pure FP approach brings a completely different approach to design and SW engineering while I personally see adding lambdas and currying to your imperative code just some sort of syntactic sugar. Maybe I am too strict in my view of the matter..
 
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July 26th, 2013, 7:15 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: chocolatemoneyQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: chocolatemoneyI personally would not spend time learning an additional imperative language. I would invest time in trying to work out code with a new approach - pure functional in Haskell, OCAML, F#, for example. I guess that brings more challenges and insights, a fresh new perspective.http://www.wilmott.com/messageview.cfm? ... GDBTABLE=I think this is a good piece of advice. What is your view on Scala, Hadoop etc.?Even now you see FP features entering C++ 11 and C#. FP is maths in code, yes?In Switzerland, probably because of the role and proximity of the EPFL, Scala has been growing quickly.Java will/is add(ing) FP features, going along the same path took by C++ 11 and C#. Let's see if this will slow down Scala growth.I think FP goes beyond the analogy with mathematical functions. FP in my view is the concept of immutability and a design where the building blocks of your code are function where you have an input and an output, and SW is the composition of those. A pure FP approach brings a completely different approach to design and SW engineering while I personally see adding lambdas and currying to your imperative code just some sort of syntactic sugar. Maybe I am too strict in my view of the matter..From aesthetics point of view, pure FP might have the edge but 'pure' languages (e.g. Smalltalk) were not a commercial success in general. C++ was called a 'better C' in the 90's.Engineers and traders tend to think in s/w blocks IMO so I think FP languages should not forget about modules and objects?
Last edited by Cuchulainn on July 25th, 2013, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Polter
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July 26th, 2013, 8:15 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: chocolatemoneyQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: chocolatemoneyI personally would not spend time learning an additional imperative language. I would invest time in trying to work out code with a new approach - pure functional in Haskell, OCAML, F#, for example. I guess that brings more challenges and insights, a fresh new perspective.http://www.wilmott.com/messageview.cfm? ... GDBTABLE=I think this is a good piece of advice. What is your view on Scala, Hadoop etc.?Even now you see FP features entering C++ 11 and C#. FP is maths in code, yes?In Switzerland, probably because of the role and proximity of the EPFL, Scala has been growing quickly.Java will/is add(ing) FP features, going along the same path took by C++ 11 and C#. Let's see if this will slow down Scala growth.I think FP goes beyond the analogy with mathematical functions. FP in my view is the concept of immutability and a design where the building blocks of your code are function where you have an input and an output, and SW is the composition of those. A pure FP approach brings a completely different approach to design and SW engineering while I personally see adding lambdas and currying to your imperative code just some sort of syntactic sugar. Maybe I am too strict in my view of the matter..From aesthetics point of view, pure FP might have the edge but 'pure' languages (e.g. Smalltalk) were not a commercial success in general. C++ was called a 'better C' in the 90's.Engineers and traders tend to think in s/w blocks IMO so I think FP languages should not forget about modules and objects?QuoteWhat about Objects?So, should we forget OO and all program in functional programming languages? No! What the industry learned about OO decomposition in analysis and design stays valid.Central question: What goes where? In the end, need to put things somewhere, or risk unmanageable global namespace.New ObjectsPreviously: "Objects are characterized by state, identity, and behavior." (Booch)Now: Eliminate or reduce mutable state. Structural equality instead of reference identity. Concentrate on functionality (behavior)Can FP and OOP be combined?QuoteMartin Odersky visited SF Scala to share his perspective on getting the most out of this incredibly complex, and powerful, programming language.[...]He says, that in today's programming paradigm, we are in a transition period between imperative/object-oriented and functional programming. In the end, he predicts a fusion between both styles. Find out why!For more, see Martin Odersky's Keynote Speech at ScalaDays 2013 - "Scala With Style":VideoSlidesVersion given later at SF Scala (combines slides w/ video):Martin Odersky: Scala with Style
Last edited by Polter on July 25th, 2013, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Cuchulainn
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July 27th, 2013, 7:05 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: PolterQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: chocolatemoneyQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: chocolatemoneyI personally would not spend time learning an additional imperative language. I would invest time in trying to work out code with a new approach - pure functional in Haskell, OCAML, F#, for example. I guess that brings more challenges and insights, a fresh new perspective.http://www.wilmott.com/messageview.cfm? ... GDBTABLE=I think this is a good piece of advice. What is your view on Scala, Hadoop etc.?Even now you see FP features entering C++ 11 and C#. FP is maths in code, yes?In Switzerland, probably because of the role and proximity of the EPFL, Scala has been growing quickly.Java will/is add(ing) FP features, going along the same path took by C++ 11 and C#. Let's see if this will slow down Scala growth.I think FP goes beyond the analogy with mathematical functions. FP in my view is the concept of immutability and a design where the building blocks of your code are function where you have an input and an output, and SW is the composition of those. A pure FP approach brings a completely different approach to design and SW engineering while I personally see adding lambdas and currying to your imperative code just some sort of syntactic sugar. Maybe I am too strict in my view of the matter..From aesthetics point of view, pure FP might have the edge but 'pure' languages (e.g. Smalltalk) were not a commercial success in general. C++ was called a 'better C' in the 90's.Engineers and traders tend to think in s/w blocks IMO so I think FP languages should not forget about modules and objects?QuoteWhat about Objects?So, should we forget OO and all program in functional programming languages? No! What the industry learned about OO decomposition in analysis and design stays valid.Central question: What goes where? In the end, need to put things somewhere, or risk unmanageable global namespace.New ObjectsPreviously: "Objects are characterized by state, identity, and behavior." (Booch)Now: Eliminate or reduce mutable state. Structural equality instead of reference identity. Concentrate on functionality (behavior)Can FP and OOP be combined?QuoteMartin Odersky visited SF Scala to share his perspective on getting the most out of this incredibly complex, and powerful, programming language.[...]He says, that in today's programming paradigm, we are in a transition period between imperative/object-oriented and functional programming. In the end, he predicts a fusion between both styles. Find out why!For more, see Martin Odersky's Keynote Speech at ScalaDays 2013 - "Scala With Style":[...]Version given later at SF Scala (combines slides w/ video):[...]I have limited bandwidth at the moment, so I will view it later.Some thinking out aloud:One of the issues with OOP is that it does not scale to large systems (maybe some of the reasons/issues may be resolved by FP?). An issue is to program large systems and FP is a more appropriate metaphor IMO, especially the part of interfaces (like COM or std::function).QuoteNow: Eliminate or reduce mutable state. Structural equality instead of reference identity. Concentrate on functionality (behavior)I think modelling state up-front (as with OOP) hinders flexibility. The Responsibility-Driven Method of Rebecca Wirfs Brock take a behavioural approach to OOP afair.I agree that programming is in a state of transition/evolution. But it will take some time before it becomes mainstream. On the other hand, most OO programmers can grasp the essence in a couple of hours (use .NET delegates and new stuff in C++ 11). A good test case is to define plug-in methods and Strategy to show how such a transition could take place.
Last edited by Cuchulainn on July 26th, 2013, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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capafan2
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July 27th, 2013, 8:11 pm

Cuch,When you say FP is a better method for large systems, do you mean that in the Concurrent Systems context or in the design context (FP makes it cleaner to design Big Systems).Are you implying that OOP makes it impossible to design and "Implement" large systems? I have been thinking of going deeper into FP but find it really hard to find a context for it. Hence would like your thoughts
 
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chocolatemoney
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July 27th, 2013, 8:33 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: capafan2Cuch,When you say FP is a better method for large systems, do you mean that in the Concurrent Systems context or in the design context (FP makes it cleaner to design Big Systems).Are you implying that OOP makes it impossible to design and "Implement" large systems? I have been thinking of going deeper into FP but find it really hard to find a context for it. Hence would like your thoughtsOOP does not make it "impossible" but, in large systems and in presence of concurrency, pure FP has an advantage: it prevents any type of side effect, simplifying project management and the testing and debugging process.
Last edited by chocolatemoney on July 26th, 2013, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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