SERVING THE QUANTITATIVE FINANCE COMMUNITY

Sprinter
Posts: 103
Joined: October 21st, 2012, 11:05 am

### Options after a PhD

coincidentally you are posting just as I am replying to your last post. phd in finance after mfe? did you try a research position at the university you did your mfe from leading to a phd. why a phd in finance after mfe. where did you do your mfe from did you apply for jobs after mfe. most mfe programs have almost 100% employment percentage for graduates.

access1nash
Topic Author
Posts: 29
Joined: February 1st, 2009, 4:16 pm

### Options after a PhD

have worked for 4 years in relevant roles after mfe. not as a proper quant, but still relevant enough. anyway, don't ask me more details
Last edited by access1nash on May 31st, 2014, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Marco72
Posts: 128
Joined: March 14th, 2006, 11:09 am

### Options after a PhD

QuoteOriginally posted by: access1nashThat's what- these are core courses....one can take stochastic modelling, empirical option pricing, etc in electives to make it relevant. Asset pricing deals with equilibrium models, continuous time finance, etc. The only difference might be it may not require a lot of programming......And as such model validation doesn't require a PhD...it's just that nowadays employers have been asking for it since they are available...just like Product Control doesn't require MFEs, but banks still recruit MFEs for itThe most important part of a PhD is your research, not the courses you attend. That's what the hiring manager will likely focus on when scanning your CV. You'll have two hurdles to pass: first getting an interview, and then passing it. In my opinion, a PhD in "finance" is unlikely to help you pass the first one for a model development or validation role, and you'd need to do a lot of hard work on your own, in addition to the PhD, to pass the second one. By the way, I am not sure I would consider what Product Control teams typically do to be a quant role.

access1nash
Topic Author
Posts: 29
Joined: February 1st, 2009, 4:16 pm

### Options after a PhD

QuoteThe most important part of a PhD is your research, not the courses you attend. That's what the hiring manager will likely focus on when scanning your CV. You'll have two hurdles to pass: first getting an interview, and then passing it. In my opinion, a PhD in "finance" is unlikely to help you pass the first one for a model development or validation role, and you'd need to do a lot of hard work on your own, in addition to the PhD, to pass the second one. By the way, I am not sure I would consider what Product Control teams typically do to be a quant role.Yeah, even i never said Product Control is quantitative. Which is why they shouldn't be saying in requirements "MFE is advantageous" and recruit MFEs in it. I haven't been in Product Control, but those are the most advertised roles here. Once you get in, you might never be able to get out of it. So research in areas like empirical option pricing or model risk also wouldn't help according to you for validation roles? What about roles in asset management firms if your research is in asset allocation? I'd any day love to be in a fund than in a middle office role with lots of programming.....I think they should be hiring more PhD in Finance than Math/CS. Again, I don't really know.

Sprinter
Posts: 103
Joined: October 21st, 2012, 11:05 am

### Options after a PhD

access1nash, either you are making a fool of us or you don't know what you are talking about. if you have quantitative experience have an mfe and have worked in valuation why don't you go back to those employers. was it local or abroad. you are doing a part-time phd in finance broke you have experience you are an mfe why don't you go back to your previous employers. you quit your job and suddenly there are no quantitative roles. if you have experience you should get a job. you will hardly find a middle office programming role. you should research on how banks operate and what different departments work on. model validation is a market risk function not a middle office role. if you are interested in a quantitative role you cannot avoid programming. there is research done at asset management firms but to have success at these firms you should have a good understanding of financial markets you should have views on asset classes be economically strong. if you have mfe you can easily get into a quantitative role. an mfe can get you way further than a phd in finance.

access1nash
Topic Author
Posts: 29
Joined: February 1st, 2009, 4:16 pm

### Options after a PhD

QuoteOriginally posted by: Sprinteraccess1nash, either you are making a fool of us or you don't know what you are talking about. if you have quantitative experience have an mfe and have worked in valuation why don't you go back to those employers. was it local or abroad. you are doing a part-time phd in finance broke you have experience you are an mfe why don't you go back to your previous employers. you quit your job and suddenly there are no quantitative roles. if you have experience you should get a job. you will hardly find a middle office programming role. you should research on how banks operate and what different departments work on. model validation is a market risk function not a middle office role. if you are interested in a quantitative role you cannot avoid programming. there is research done at asset management firms but to have success at these firms you should have a good understanding of financial markets you should have views on asset classes be economically strong. if you have mfe you can easily get into a quantitative role. an mfe can get you way further than a phd in finance.How has your CQF worked for you till now? I'm sure you don't know what you're talking of. I hope to hear from more experienced people. So please.....

access1nash
Topic Author
Posts: 29
Joined: February 1st, 2009, 4:16 pm

### Options after a PhD

QuoteOriginally posted by: access1nashQuoteOriginally posted by: Sprinteraccess1nash, either you are making a fool of us or you don't know what you are talking about. if you have quantitative experience have an mfe and have worked in valuation why don't you go back to those employers. was it local or abroad. you are doing a part-time phd in finance broke you have experience you are an mfe why don't you go back to your previous employers. you quit your job and suddenly there are no quantitative roles. if you have experience you should get a job. you will hardly find a middle office programming role. you should research on how banks operate and what different departments work on. model validation is a market risk function not a middle office role. if you are interested in a quantitative role you cannot avoid programming. there is research done at asset management firms but to have success at these firms you should have a good understanding of financial markets you should have views on asset classes be economically strong. if you have mfe you can easily get into a quantitative role. an mfe can get you way further than a phd in finance.keep applying "east west"....let me know how that works for you

Sprinter
Posts: 103
Joined: October 21st, 2012, 11:05 am

### Options after a PhD

at least I know where I stand. if I had a job offer locally even only partially quantitative I would have opted for. if you had read the other chain I know I can get a job abroad as I have been employed on work visas by large institutions before. if I had experience mfe I would have gone abroad. doing a phd in finance broke with experience and mfe doesn't make sense unless there are reasons you don't want to share.

Marco72
Posts: 128
Joined: March 14th, 2006, 11:09 am

### Options after a PhD

QuoteOriginally posted by: access1nashQuoteSo research in areas like empirical option pricing or model risk also wouldn't help according to you for validation roles? What about roles in asset management firms if your research is in asset allocation? I'd any day love to be in a fund than in a middle office role with lots of programming.....I think they should be hiring more PhD in Finance than Math/CS. Again, I don't really know.It really depends on who is supervising you, and what kind of experience they have in these areas. Here in the UK, academics dealing with pricing and risk models typically work in mathematics departments (with Cass Business School being a notable exception). If you manage to find a well known expert to supervise you or to be your joint supervisor, then even a PhD in finance could work fine. I am afraid I don't know much about funds, as I have only worked within IBs.

access1nash
Topic Author
Posts: 29
Joined: February 1st, 2009, 4:16 pm

### Options after a PhD

QuoteOriginally posted by: Marco72QuoteOriginally posted by: access1nashQuoteSo research in areas like empirical option pricing or model risk also wouldn't help according to you for validation roles? What about roles in asset management firms if your research is in asset allocation? I'd any day love to be in a fund than in a middle office role with lots of programming.....I think they should be hiring more PhD in Finance than Math/CS. Again, I don't really know.It really depends on who is supervising you, and what kind of experience they have in these areas. Here in the UK, academics dealing with pricing and risk models typically work in mathematics departments (with Cass Business School being a notable exception). If you manage to find a well known expert to supervise you or to be your joint supervisor, then even a PhD in finance could work fine. I am afraid I don't know much about funds, as I have only worked within IBs.Ok, thanks for your input. I had spoken to a couple of professors at a top-15 Econ program and a top-20 Finance program. At least one of them (from the Finance program) is very well known. Both are in Asset pricing. Lets see how it goes.

Posts: 1544
Joined: May 19th, 2006, 9:50 am

### Options after a PhD

These are expected salaries for Finance faculty at a State University.Finance Faculty salairesAs you can see, an Assistant Professor in Finance starts at around $200,000 for nine month salary.In addition to this, they get 2/9 for summer research support (about$50,000).After they get tenure, they could easily get an additional $100,000 to$500,000 in consulting fees.The admission rate is very low (usually less than 2%). Chicago takes about 4 Finance PhD students every year plus about 200 Physics PhD students and 200 Math PhD students and 100 Engineering PhD students.Most Finance PhDs opt for academic positions and they come to Wall Street only after they get denied tenure.Usually they start in Stat Arb area and within a few years they will be partners in one of the Hedge Funds. Very rare to find any of them in the IBs.Many MFE grads from Stanford, Princeton, Chicago, and Berkeley have gone on to do Finance PhD. You need to have MFE from a good school, be at the top of your MFE class with a good GPA, and get good reference letters from well-known faculty.PhD in USA is a long, tough, gruelling process which will take between five to seven years. You should think very carefully about the opportunity cost. Also, in the Finance Department, they want to train people for academic careers and not for Wall Street. So if you say that you want an industry job, you better apply for a Math PhD instead of a Finance PhD.

access1nash
Topic Author
Posts: 29
Joined: February 1st, 2009, 4:16 pm

### Options after a PhD

ppauper
Posts: 70239
Joined: November 15th, 2001, 1:29 pm

### Options after a PhD

Posts: 1544
Joined: May 19th, 2006, 9:50 am

### Options after a PhD

Yes that is correct. According to The Chicago Physics Department web site:95 students were admitted out of 651 applicantsBut that is still a very high admit rate of almost 18%.Whereas in Finance department, they admit 5 students out of 350 applicants for an admit rate of 1%.There is quite a big difference between 1% and 18% admit rate.

DevonFangs
Posts: 3004
Joined: November 9th, 2009, 1:49 pm

### Options after a PhD

QuoteOriginally posted by: traderjoe1976These are expected salaries for Finance faculty at a State University.Finance Faculty salairesAs you can see, an Assistant Professor in Finance starts at around $200,000 for nine month salary.In addition to this, they get 2/9 for summer research support (about$50,000).After they get tenure, they could easily get an additional $100,000 to$500,000 in consulting fees.The admission rate is very low (usually less than 2%). Chicago takes about 4 Finance PhD students every year plus about 200 Physics PhD students and 200 Math PhD students and 100 Engineering PhD students.Most Finance PhDs opt for academic positions and they come to Wall Street only after they get denied tenure.Usually they start in Stat Arb area and within a few years they will be partners in one of the Hedge Funds. Very rare to find any of them in the IBs.Many MFE grads from Stanford, Princeton, Chicago, and Berkeley have gone on to do Finance PhD. You need to have MFE from a good school, be at the top of your MFE class with a good GPA, and get good reference letters from well-known faculty.PhD in USA is a long, tough, gruelling process which will take between five to seven years. You should think very carefully about the opportunity cost. Also, in the Finance Department, they want to train people for academic careers and not for Wall Street. So if you say that you want an industry job, you better apply for a Math PhD instead of a Finance PhD.I don't live in the US so I've no idea, but how much do those salaries contribute to the disproportional inflation of college tuition in the USA and do you think they are justified in terms of the opportunities they create for students. Are we sure this isn't just an indicator of a major flaw in the system.