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Traden4Alpha
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Chaos Tig

June 21st, 2015, 12:23 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: outrunQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: outrunOf all the people sitting down, is there anyone who is not sat down by someone still standing?It can happen if simultaneous tigs can occur. If A tigs B and B tigs C at the same time, then C is sitting down as so is B.Hmm...The rule "If the person who tigged you sits down, you stand up and start playing again." would imply B sitting down and C standing up again.Maybe! English does a bad job of clarifying simultaneous vs. sequential actions. Strictly speaking, the rule seems to refer only to the sequential event scenario because "person who tigged you" is past tense but "... sits down" is present tense. Also, the existence of an "at the same time" rule seems to suggest that simultaneous event are different from sequential events.And there's still the matter of cycles. If A tigs B, B tigs C, and C tigs A at the same time, then is everyone standing or sitting?
 
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Traden4Alpha
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Chaos Tig

June 21st, 2015, 9:38 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: outrunQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: outrunQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: outrunOf all the people sitting down, is there anyone who is not sat down by someone still standing?It can happen if simultaneous tigs can occur. If A tigs B and B tigs C at the same time, then C is sitting down as so is B.Hmm...The rule "If the person who tigged you sits down, you stand up and start playing again." would imply B sitting down and C standing up again.Maybe! English does a bad job of clarifying simultaneous vs. sequential actions. Strictly speaking, the rule seems to refer only to the sequential event scenario because "person who tigged you" is past tense but "... sits down" is present tense. Also, the existence of an "at the same time" rule seems to suggest that simultaneous event are different from sequential events.And there's still the matter of cycles. If A tigs B, B tigs C, and C tigs A at the same time, then is everyone standing or sitting?Yes I agree. The cycles depends on ordering of events.Another aspect: some events can't take place: eg you can't be tigged when sat down. what happens when multiple people tig someone at the same time?Exactly! If A and B both tig C at the same time, what event enables C to stand up? The tigging of A OR B or the tigging of A AND B?One solution is to expand the scope of the "rock-paper-scissors" rule to cover all simultaneous tigging events -- randomly selecting which of the simultaneous tigs occurs.
 
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Traden4Alpha
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Chaos Tig

June 21st, 2015, 11:13 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: outrunQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: outrunQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: outrunQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaQuoteOriginally posted by: outrunOf all the people sitting down, is there anyone who is not sat down by someone still standing?It can happen if simultaneous tigs can occur. If A tigs B and B tigs C at the same time, then C is sitting down as so is B.Hmm...The rule "If the person who tigged you sits down, you stand up and start playing again." would imply B sitting down and C standing up again.Maybe! English does a bad job of clarifying simultaneous vs. sequential actions. Strictly speaking, the rule seems to refer only to the sequential event scenario because "person who tigged you" is past tense but "... sits down" is present tense. Also, the existence of an "at the same time" rule seems to suggest that simultaneous event are different from sequential events.And there's still the matter of cycles. If A tigs B, B tigs C, and C tigs A at the same time, then is everyone standing or sitting?Yes I agree. The cycles depends on ordering of events.Another aspect: some events can't take place: eg you can't be tigged when sat down. what happens when multiple people tig someone at the same time?Exactly! If A and B both tig C at the same time, what event enables C to stand up? The tigging of A OR B or the tigging of A AND B?One solution is to expand the scope of the "rock-paper-scissors" rule to cover all simultaneous tigging events -- randomly selecting which of the simultaneous tigs occurs.Or maybe we should first assume that those (tri-tig?) events don't take place? That looks like the easiest way forward to me.Sometimes I think that this is all part of the experiment.. MHill not commenting is like the psychiater that says "keep on talking". Other times I think we are solving some well known physics problem disguised as a brainteaser. Maybe this is about a link between relativity (ordering of event) and quantum mechanics (states)? Or logic? Or lock free parallel programming?It's hard for me to imagine a self-consistent physics or system design in which tri-tig is impossible but bi-tig is possible. Either the entities are independent actors running on their own clocks with the possibility of N>1 players submitting an action at the "same" time (in which N={2, 3, 4, ....} collisions are possible or something ALWAYs breaks simultaneity in favor of one player or the other. Given the "chaos" in the name, I assumed that meant the players take fast asynchronous turns which imply collision is possible.You are right that MHill's silence does raise the possibility that we are the players of some meta-game of Chaos Chaos Tig. Who will sit down first?!?!?!!
Last edited by Traden4Alpha on June 20th, 2015, 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Traden4Alpha
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Chaos Tig

June 22nd, 2015, 12:13 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: outrunA tig could be bumping your head against someone's lower back, that type of tigs won't have bi-tigs. Or you tig someone by puting a finger in his nose, that caps the number of people who can tig you at 2. Finger in mouth caps it at 1. If a tig is a high-five then you auto-bi-tig,.. Etc etcLOL!If you lie back-to-back and head-to-midback next to someone, you can bi-tig. And in more "normal" configurations, one can cycle-tig.With high-fives, one can bi-tig two people at once or quad-tig one person.
 
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Traden4Alpha
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Chaos Tig

June 22nd, 2015, 12:46 am

The other "winning" strategy is to out-tig all the opponents. Tigging everyone instantaneously (before they tig you).And if a bi-tig occurs, then tig the opponent WHILE playing rock-paper-scissors.(It feels vaguely like an HFT arms race)
 
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MHill
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Chaos Tig

June 22nd, 2015, 10:18 am

QuoteSometimes I think that this is all part of the experiment.. MHill not commenting is like the psychiater that says "keep on talking".:) It's very interesting, seeing where the conversation goes. It never seems to go anywhere near the path I would have envisaged at the start!I don't know the answer to this (I confess I haven't tried to solve the problem - I've been too busy trying to draw 'My Little Ponies' this week!). I've seen the game played about three times. The kids can get very confused quickly. Sometimes they forget who tigged them, and so don't get back up, accidentally changing the course of the game. Ignoring those mistakes though, I suppose I'm interested in a 'textbook' game, where everyone remembers the rules, and no-one needs to play rock-paper-scissors.If player A tigs everybody else before any other tigging is done, player A wins.If player B tigs player C, C sits down. If A tigs B, C stands up. If player A then tigs C, C sits down again.I think that if A tigs everybody else at some point in the game, A can win. Does A only need to tig everybody else once, or are there situations where A needs to tig B more than once?Is there a way for A to win without tigging everyone else (eg tigging all except one)?
 
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Traden4Alpha
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Chaos Tig

June 22nd, 2015, 7:39 pm

QuoteOriginally posted by: MHillIs there a way for A to win without tigging everyone else (eg tigging all except one)?In the absence of simultaneous cycle-tigs and gang-up tigs (multiple players who simultaneously tigged a player), player A must tig everyone to win.Imagine the current state of the who-tigged-whom as a digraph. The indegree of every player can be 0 (standing player) or 1 (sitting tigged player). The outdegree can be any number between 0 (a player without any current tigs) to N-1 (the player has won by tigging everyone else)When a player is tigged, their outdegree reverts to 0 because anyone they had tigged stands up. That is, the outdegree of a node with a non-zero indegree is always zero. Thus, there are no chains of tigs and the overall digraph is a set of disconnected 1-ply trees or stars.If a player has not tigged M other players, then at least one of those M players will be standing and if they then tig the last standing player of the M, then the M-1 players will stand up. Only when one player has tigged everyone, does that player win.A winning player may need to tig someone multiple times but only if that winning player was tigged during the game by a second player and then untigged by a third player.
 
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MHill
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Chaos Tig

June 23rd, 2015, 7:05 am

Nice explanation! These ponies are impressed too...
 
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MHill
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Chaos Tig

June 24th, 2015, 5:11 am

QuoteOriginally posted by: outrunNice double tig by rainbow dash!Nice one!My time drawing ponies wasn't entirely wasted. My son has been very entertained at how badly I did! I'm sure Picasso would have agreed that I had the eyes in the right place at least... Time to retire from cartoons and go back to the day job.
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