Can someone please explain whats going on as I really don't understand.Greece got into big debt and got bailed out, this was some time ago. Then it turns out they have spent all of this money and are again in big dept and need to be bailed out again - the current situation. So the brains of Europe suggest a further 111 billion pound bailout and have 50 percent of its debt cut as long as they implement "austerity" measures. But surely they will just run out of money again in 6 months time? Then what? We just go through the whole saga again and flash the buzzword "austerity" around in the talks, the politicians spend a week flying first class, staying in 5 star hotels and attending expensive laid on conferences. I assume the Greek PM is staying in a caravan and flew economy class to these meetings, if not why not?Personally I firmly believe no amount of money will sort this out, there are fundamental problems with governments which have nothing to do with "austerity".Sorry for the rant. Had to get of of my chest!

Greece has for decades substituted lack of competitiveness and absence of economic potential by handing out generous social welfare gifts which were funded via government debt.Now they slowly realize that their "wealth" has been an illusion, and that they are an emerging market (at best) and in the absence of a Chinese or German culture of thrift they are bound to drop a lot on the human development index. Government spending (debt-financed!) has for decades fuelled economic growth...this is coming to an end now.A while ago Papandreou complained about proposed austerity saying "We are not India or Bangladesh". Soon they will wish they were India, because they are going to be much closer to Bangladesh. This is a village based society that lacks an educated middle class. Strong, but latent, affinity with socialist, if not marxist-leninist, paradigms in large parts of the population. Complete lack of understanding that government needs to deregulate. General expectation that government pays for anything, even vacation. Knowledge of basic economic principles (e.g. competition is good) is stunningly absent, even among educated members of New Democracy (the Greek Republicans). Irrational pride that leads to inability to admit own mistakes, it is always the other person's fault. Idiotic driving skills, unethical and quasi-suicidal behavior behind the steering wheel. Of course, these bad traits are all inherited from the Turks. The good Greek traits, those that make them charming, are all traits of their own.But alas, this country has a long way to go to catch up with the rest of civilized Europe. It is doomed. Signomi Ellada, you will be better off on your own!

Mike pal, you sound more bitter than red vinegar. How is your PnL doing lately?

Consider EU problems as the second consecutive cycle. The 1st deals with US mortgages. Greek is like Country wide credit event. What country will represent Lehman Brotherhood: Italy, Spain or one from upper tier will be clear soon. What all G-7 doing is something to put aside EU monetary restructuring. They do not see and know a solution of the problems.

Interesting that Greece is #7 in the world when it comes to military spending per capita

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnInteresting that Greece is #7 in the world when it comes to military spending per capitaMainly procuring French and German guns

QuoteOriginally posted by: AnthisQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnInteresting that Greece is #7 in the world when it comes to military spending per capitaMainly procuring French and German gunsFor what? Are they expecting an invasion?

QuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: AnthisQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnInteresting that Greece is #7 in the world when it comes to military spending per capitaMainly procuring French and German gunsFor what? Are they expecting an invasion?EU borderline country, former iron curtain on nothern borders, daily aggression incidents from an eastern neighbour, Cyprus issues, significant illegal immigration pressures currently, issues with prospective nat-gas oil fields south and east of Crete in near future.

QuoteOriginally posted by: AnthisQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: AnthisQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnInteresting that Greece is #7 in the world when it comes to military spending per capitaMainly procuring French and German gunsFor what? Are they expecting an invasion?EU borderline country, former iron curtain on nothern borders, daily aggression incidents from an eastern neighbour, Cyprus issues, significant illegal immigration pressures currently, issues with prospective nat-gas oil fields south and east of Crete in near future.So, what are the reforms that are needed?

QuoteOriginally posted by: AnthisQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnQuoteOriginally posted by: AnthisQuoteOriginally posted by: CuchulainnInteresting that Greece is #7 in the world when it comes to military spending per capitaMainly procuring French and German gunsFor what? Are they expecting an invasion?EU borderline country, former iron curtain on nothern borders, daily aggression incidents from an eastern neighbour, Cyprus issues, significant illegal immigration pressures currently, issues with prospective nat-gas oil fields south and east of Crete in near future.But if Greece is part of the EU, surely it should expect that some, if not most of these issues, are going to be a pan-European problem, rather than solely a Greek problem? Conversely, if Greeks feel that the EU is unable or unwilling to deal with these issues, maybe they shouldn't have ever joined such an arrangement?

Greece has the potential for China like growth, recall that the reason Chinese people were almost wholly worthless was the stupid way their country was run, even now despite decades of growth the average citizen of China is poorer than the average in Greece.The reforms are technically trivial to implement, since they mostly consist of stopping the stupid shit.There are very many things that are licenced that don't need to be, the classic example is that like New York cabs, there are only a certain number of truck licences, with the result that it is cheaper to have a truck drive from Italy into Greece, deliver to another part of Greece and go back to Italy than to hire a Greek truckThe overstaffing in the pubic sector is past the point of madness.The National Bank of Greece has 8 times more staff than the Bank of England. The BoE oversees a huge financial centre and runs its own currency, something that Greece does not. The damage done is not the cash flows to people who don't even turn up for their non-jobs, but the hoarding of labour. Compared to most of the planet, Greeks are reasonably well educated people, they could be useful, but their capabilities are squandered because if someone offers you more money to work less, you often choose to take it.Greeks aren't taxed, the taxation system is broken on purpose, so...Greece has passed the Communist Party event horizon, that point where the local communist party are those that make the most sense, which in Greece is not a high bar.Workers, people who actually do something that someone else values and pays for, pay nearly all the taxes, ie the proletariat pays and the idle and the idle rich do not. Removing stupid restrictions and labour hoarding would do for Greece what Thatcher did for the UK in the 80s, recall that before Thatcher took over the UK was being bailed out by the IMF and was near to electing a government so incompetent and corrupt that even Greeks might vote for them.so the reform that is really needed is to take Greece out of the hands of Greeks, but sadly nationalism stops them hiring someone with a clue and who isn't wholly corrupt, or both.In free and fair elections, the Greeks have chosen candidates that are nakedly corrupt and incompetent, this tells us that no one who can be chosen by Greeks should be allowed to run a country. There are many smart and honest Greeks, which doesn't matter since they would get fewer votes than a fish that was found dead in Athens polluted water.Mark Carney the highly successful Canadian Governor of the Bank is not far off the end of his term, unlike anyone who Greeks would choose as a leader, he doesn't (as one of the largest Greek parties, the Golden Dawn) think that the Greek problems could be cured by putting landmines around the border to stop illegal immigration. He can count, which puts him well over the numeracy of the average Greek voter and unlike nearly everyone in Greece there is no evidence that he has taken or given a bribe.The historical precedent is the Treaty of London, by which Britain and America by force of arms imposed human rights on Europe after WWII.Sadly until Greece collapses in violence, no one has the stomach to install Mark Carney in charge of the wretched corrupt mess.

I am really not sure I share all this positive sentiment and near adulation that I hear expressed when people mention Mark Carney. He hasn't exactly covered himself with glory during the time that he's been conducting UK monetary policy.

QuoteThe historical precedent is the Treaty of London, by which Britain and America by force of arms imposed human rights on Europe after WWII.Most of Western Europe, to be precise. The other half was given to Joseph Stalin by Roosevelt and Churchill at Yalta on Black Sea. But I digress. There were many Treaty of London but WWII is not one of them. But I get the drift

QuoteOriginally posted by: MartinghoulBut if Greece is part of the EU, surely it should expect that some, if not most of these issues, are going to be a pan-European problem, rather than solely a Greek problem? Conversely, if Greeks feel that the EU is unable or unwilling to deal with these issues, maybe they shouldn't have ever joined such an arrangement?EU, unlike NATO, is not a defence coalition, consequently apart from few Frontex officers serving in Greece, trying to cope with illegal immigration there is no other assistance from other EU countries, neither its foreseen from any current EU treaties. Regarding illegal immigration, Greece is a tranzit country for most of these people, while its rather not impossible to enter the country from northern or eastern borders, if they dont get arrested, die from snow and frost, step into minefields, eaten by wolves or bears, or just get drown in the sea or a river, its almost impossible to pass to Italy and then to their eventual destination countries. That means those people are essentially trapped in Greece, a fact that offers some comfort to other EU countries. Moreover, Turkey being, supposedly, a NATO ally country, makes things more complicated, nothing is foreseen on NATO treaties in case to NATO countries engage in war between themselves. Thus, untill EU is transformed to some sort of federation and forms a common defence policy and defence forces, such issues are to be remained unresolved by EU. On the other hand, I am not sure why I should feel safer if Dutch armed forces units are stationed in say Lesbos, French in Kos, Brits in Crete, or Germans in Myconos.

QuoteOriginally posted by: DominicConnor.The National Bank of Greece has 8 times more staff than the Bank of England. The BoE oversees a huge financial centre and runs its own currency, something that Greece does not. NBG is just a normal high street bank, just like RBS in UK. Bank of Greece is the central bank, if you wanna compare like with like.QuoteThere are very many things that are licenced that don't need to be, the classic example is that like New York cabs, there are only a certain number of truck licences, with the result that it is cheaper to have a truck drive from Italy into Greece, deliver to another part of Greece and go back to Italy than to hire a Greek truckIt costs a friend some 1000 euros to have a container moved from his factory on board a ship at Piraeus, some 300 klm away, and another 2000 euros to have the same container delivered to his client in California.QuoteGreeks aren't taxed, the taxation system is broken on purpose, so...Greece has passed the Communist Party event horizon, that point where the local communist party are those that make the most sense, which in Greece is not a high bar.Workers, people who actually do something that someone else values and pays for, pay nearly all the taxes, ie the proletariat pays and the idle and the idle rich do not. Its correct that people whose salary is their sole source of income, pay their fair share of taxes. Its also correct that those people, just cause they are the certain and easy source of public revenues have been overtaxed over the last years. Yet most of these people are not the wealthy. Last year the government introduced a property tax, in an attempt to tax wealth, and just cause this tax was sort of imported, with little localization effort, lot of failures arisen. For exampe i own a small orange grove, with a small house on its corner. If there was no house, i would be liable to pay some 30 euros per acre, a fair amount in my humble view. Just cause there is a house, the orange grove is treated as some sort of backyard in some urban plot, being liable to pay more property tax than the income the grove generates, essentially for the taxman i am a millioner.