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Commodity Option on Futures - deriving the formula

Posted: October 15th, 2008, 7:25 pm
by gjlipman
You say "at the expiry of the option you do not need to make any further payments". If I'm talking a sold Nymex european WTI options (so premium paid upfront), at expiry, money goes out of my interest earning collateral account, to the counterparty, I'd consider that an payment (even though the cash is already sitting in the collateral account so doesn't leave my hands). Are we just describing the same thing differently, or do you disagree.I guess when I refer to payments, I don't consider it a payment if money goes from my own bank account to my interest bearing collateral account lodged with the exchange, but I do consider it a payment if money goes from that collateral account to a counterparty - but I guess this is just definitional?

Commodity Option on Futures - deriving the formula

Posted: October 15th, 2008, 8:13 pm
by daveangel
we are talking about the same thing - all i was trying to point out is that the cumulative variation margin is going to be your "payment"

Commodity Option on Futures - deriving the formula

Posted: November 5th, 2008, 10:09 am
by CommOddity
QuoteOriginally posted by: gjlipman These are (correct me if I'm wrong) typically the options where the premium isn't paid up front. IPE have some options on futures that use this approach (though these might all be American anyway, in which case you shouldn't be using Blacks formula).Hi, which options on IPE do you refer to?It's really hard to get infos on that clearing system...thks

Commodity Option on Futures - deriving the formula

Posted: November 7th, 2008, 8:20 am
by cosmologist
QuoteOriginally posted by: gjlipmanMargining is a real nightmare, as different people mean different things by it. All exchange traded commodities options require margins, in the sense that you put up collateral, but that collateral is earning you interest, so doesn't technically need to be taken into account in valuing the option (at least it is second order).So, if the only margining required for an option is putting up collateral, for which you receive interest, or there is no margining at all (eg in the case of an OTC option on a future), you do use a discount factor.There are a few examples in commodities options where you have to make margin payments that don't go into your collateral account, ie you don't get the value from them. These are (correct me if I'm wrong) typically the options where the premium isn't paid up front. IPE have some options on futures that use this approach (though these might all be American anyway, in which case you shouldn't be using Blacks formula). In this case, I don't think you would use a discount factor.My logic for this is as follows: imagine you've got a long dated european in the money option on an underlying with zero volatility, premium deferred. So, if we don't incorporate discount factors, it's value is F-K the whole time, we never make variation margin payments, and never get any money at the end, which makes sense. If we did incorporate discount factors, the value would be increasing each day, and we'd be making payments each day, to not receive anything in the end, which wouldn't make sense.My doubt on the last paragraph. Zero vol essentially is a forward which is justified by F-K payment. So, my question is should we be discussing this example as there seems to be no optionality involved.