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Alan
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Re: Wealth tax

June 23rd, 2017, 12:17 am

I think we should have a beauty tax that tries to level the playing field from the downright-ugly to the drop-dead gorgeous. This is the worst kind of social inequality. In the US, we probably need to start with the Hollywood elites. Everyone will need to be assessed every year by a government panel. Sure, the young (and the Bernie Sanders supporters) will be highly taxed, but we need something to finance the growing medical needs of all the old geezers.   
 
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Paul
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Re: Wealth tax

June 23rd, 2017, 6:24 am

The Taxman: You just docked.
Popeye: I has.
The Taxman: Ah ha, let's see here, that'll be 25 cents docking tax.
Popeye: What for?
The Taxman: Where's your sea craft?
Popeye: It ain't no sea craft, it's me dinghy and it's under the wharf.
The Taxman: Ah ha. aah-ha. This your goods?
Popeye: They is.
The Taxman: Yeah. You're new in town right?
Popeye: If you call this a town, yes.
The Taxman: Well, first of all, there's 17 cents new in town tax, and there's 45 cents rowboat-under-the-wharf tax, and one dollar leaving-your-junk-lying-around-the-wharf tax, so all together, you owe the Commodore $1.87.
Popeye: Uh, who's this Commodore?
The Taxman: Is the nature of question? There's a nickel question tax.
 
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DominicConnor
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 9:02 am

he UK has a form of "wealth tax" because property taxes are a bizarre function of what the house has been worth. Like in the US, rich celebrities are nearly all left wing, but when Labour suggested a "mansion tax", ie putting up property taxes on the largest homes, they threw such a collective fit, that it retreated quickly, celebs were all over the media, crying about the injustice of it all. This is especially true of the richest and most famous since they dson't pay much incomes tax because it's easy to avoid if you earn in lots of countries.
So a reason they are pretty rare is that you're taxing people who can use their fame or wealth to push it away.
 
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ppauper
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 9:54 am

 there are 3 forms of wealth tax
a) tax the holding of wealth
b) tax the transfer of wealth, eg death tax or gift tax
c) tax the appreciation of capital, capital gains tax
there's a list in the wiki: wealth tax of countries with a holding tax, although it is labelled "current examples" so is probably not exhaustive
Current examples
Argentina: It is named Impuesto a los Bienes Personales, on assets above ARS 800,000 (USD 53500), the annual rates are 0,75% for 2016, 0,50% for 2017 and 0,25% in 2018.
France: There is a solidarity tax on wealth on any net assets above €800,000, if your total net worth is €1,300,000 or more. Marginal rates range from 0.5% to 1.5%. In 2007, it collected €4.07 billion, accounting for 1.4% of total revenue.
Spain: There is a tax called Patrimonio. The tax rate is progressive, from 0.2 to 3.75% of net assets above the threshold of €700,000 after €300,000 primary residence allowance. The exact amount varies between provinces.
Netherlands: Interest income is taxed like a wealth tax. Up to and including 2016, the rate was fixed at 1.2% (30% taxation over an assumed yield of 4%). From the fiscal year of 2017 onwards, the tax rate progresses with wealth. See Income tax in the Netherlands.
Norway: 0.7% (municipal) and 0.15% (national) a total of 0.85% levied on net assets exceeding 1,200,000 kr as of 2015. For tax purposes, the value of real estate assets are estimated to approximately 50% of the market value (25% if it is the taxpayer's primary residence). The Conservative and Progress parties in the current government and the Liberal Party have stated that they aim to reduce and eventually eliminate the wealth tax.
Switzerland: A progressive wealth tax that varies by residence location. Most cantons have no wealth tax for individual net worth less than CHF 100,000 and progressively raise the tax rate on net assets with a top rate ranging from 0.13% to 0.94% depending on canton and municipality of residence. Wealth tax is levied against worldwide assets of Swiss residents, but it is not levied against assets in Switzerland held by non-residents.
Italy: Two wealth taxes are imposed. One, IVIE, is a 0.76% tax imposed on real assets held outside of Italy. The values of such assets are determined by purchase price or current market value. Property taxes paid in the country where the real estate exists can offset IVIE. Another tax, IVAFE, is 0.15% and is levied on all financial assets located outside of the country, including,so far as the language seems to imply, individual pension schemes such as 401(k)s and IRAs in the US.
 
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ppauper
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 10:01 am

 I agree with t4a that inflation is a tax on capital, and as paul suggests it is very insidious as most people don't even realize that it is being levied
back in the 1940s, a high-ranking fed official argued that the US could abolish income tax and rely on the inflation tax for revenue
Taxes for Revenue Are Obsolete
by Beardsley Ruml, Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.


Beardsley Ruml, 'Taxes for Revenue are Obsolete' American Affairs, Jan. 1946, VIII:1, p. 35
 
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ppauper
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 12:11 pm

4) handing over dx as a levy for past sins of others. These are the hidden taxes. Socialised debt.
that's part and parcel of having a central bank
The bank of england was founded because the king had recently defaulted on debt so no one would lend him any money
Enter the bank of england: the king issues bonds, the bank of england prints money and uses that to buy the bonds.
 
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Paul
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 1:06 pm

Again, Wealth Tax is different from income tax, property tax, sales tax,... They can all be avoided. Inflation is different because you can always invest in things that grow with inflation.

I only know about it from Wikipedia. E.g. France. But all rich French seem to now live outside France. Hmmm. Macron will have to get rid of it if he wants France to take over from the City of London post Brexit.
 
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Traden4Alpha
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 1:52 pm

A wealth tax can be avoided, too, by using off-shore accounts, hiding cash or gold, intentionally under-reporting the value of assets.

Moreover, what is the difference between losing 2% per annum to government-induced inflation and losing 2% per annum to government-induced taxation? In both cases, one's potential standard of living slips inexorably downward (a million dollars ain't what is used to be!) unless one finds investments that grow faster than the rate of government expropriation.
 
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Paul
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 2:20 pm

That could well be illegal though. I'm assuming one is not breaking the law! As an American you have had to come to terms with being taxed in the USA wherever you earn your money!

Property could easily rise with inflation.

Clearly you are all far too poor to worry about these things!
 
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Paul
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 2:25 pm

I'm not the sort of person who says that if X happens I will leave the country. But I am going through some thought experiments to see if I have a breaking point.
 
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Alan
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 3:02 pm

As a practical matter, it sounds to me that what is going to happen is a substantial increase in UK property taxes. But I will bet nothing else happens because it is too convoluted to tax general wealth. Under that scenario, the California experience might be instructive. That is, argue that if we *must* have this new level of tax, put it in with Calif.-style Prop. 13 safeguards.  Then, learn to live with it.  
Last edited by Alan on June 24th, 2017, 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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ppauper
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 3:04 pm

Paul seems to be differentiating between a tax on ALL wealth and a tax that only targets certain asset classes, such as a property tax or a tax on bank accounts. or inflation.
If only certain asset classes are taxed, the solution would be to move wealth into asset classes that are not taxed.

 
 
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Alan
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 3:08 pm

Not necessarily. In California, for example, you are likely better off to own a home and pay the significant taxes than not. What happens, of course, is that homeowners have substantial political influence locally, local city councils make new construction difficult, homes appreciate ... well, you can see the pattern.

Also, home ownership is subsidized at the federal taxation level with the mortgage interest deduction, kind of a sacred cow at this point in the US. There are also partial capital gain exemptions when you sell them.

Of course, the excessive subsidation of housing was one of the triggers of the Financial Crisis. A lot of that was grossly poor underwriting standards and a blind eye by regulators, but that aspect has been largely corrected. 
 
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Paul
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 3:47 pm

Yes, ALL wealth.

That's the question really, learn to live with it or would something be beyond my breaking point?

If a Conservative government says taxes have to go up that's one thing. If it's a Marxist government then that's different.
 
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Alan
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Re: Wealth tax

June 24th, 2017, 4:06 pm

Yes, I agree with that. The rationale for the tax is critical. If it's for health care for an aging population,  that's one thing. If it's mainly leftist resentment over wealth inequality, it stinks. Then move to California. You'll probably pay more in taxes, but we worship the rich and famous!  :D
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