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BullBear
Topic Author
Posts: 860
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 8:33 pm

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

Italy's External DebtItaly external debt is lower than Germany or France ext debt. Being a G7 highly industrialized country I also assume the average Italian citizen has a nice balance sheet (wealth). That would help to explain such a low external debt ratio (by Germany's/France's terms).Italy is solvent as long as it can keep its internal savings rate and while Italians keep their money in the Country. The problem is that an exit of deposits from Italians to Germany, France, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, US, UK is great for those Countries and guess who controls the ECB and the IMF...?There's a saying in Southern Europe that says: "With such a friend who needs enemies?"

Anthis
Posts: 4313
Joined: October 22nd, 2001, 10:06 am

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: BullBearItaly's External DebtItaly external debt is lower than Germany or France ext debt. Being a G7 highly industrialized country I also assume the average Italian citizen has a nice balance sheet (wealth). That would help to explain such a low external debt ratio (by Germany's/France's terms).Italy is solvent as long as it can keep its internal savings rate and while Italians keep their money in the Country. The problem is that an exit of deposits from Italians to Germany, France, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, US, UK is great for those Countries and guess who controls the ECB and the IMF...?There's a saying in Southern Europe that says: "With such a friend who needs enemies?"Have a look at the bund yields over the last 2-3 years and tell me what you think...

farmer
Posts: 13479
Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: BullBearItaly is solvent as long as it can keep its internal savings rate and while Italians keep their money in the Country. The problem is that an exit of deposits from Italians to Germany, France, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, US, UKDidn't they threaten to confiscate something like 5% of all bank deposits? If I told you I was coming to your house to take 5% of everything in there, would you not move your stuff somewhere else?

Anthis
Posts: 4313
Joined: October 22nd, 2001, 10:06 am

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerQuoteOriginally posted by: BullBearItaly is solvent as long as it can keep its internal savings rate and while Italians keep their money in the Country. The problem is that an exit of deposits from Italians to Germany, France, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, US, UKDidn't they threaten to confiscate something like 5% of all bank deposits? If I told you I was coming to your house to take 5% of everything in there, would you not move your stuff somewhere else?I think it was about deposits abroad, that their owners couldnt justify in a legitimate manner the sources of funds.

BullBear
Topic Author
Posts: 860
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 8:33 pm

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerQuoteOriginally posted by: BullBearItaly is solvent as long as it can keep its internal savings rate and while Italians keep their money in the Country. The problem is that an exit of deposits from Italians to Germany, France, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, US, UKDidn't they threaten to confiscate something like 5% of all bank deposits? If I told you I was coming to your house to take 5% of everything in there, would you not move your stuff somewhere else?They can't do it. "Pure" confiscation is illegal in a State of Law. If you mean a 5% tax increase in income or a 5% tax on flows to off-shores that are different stories that are legitimate.

BullBear
Topic Author
Posts: 860
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 8:33 pm

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: AnthisQuoteOriginally posted by: BullBearItaly's External DebtItaly external debt is lower than Germany or France ext debt. Being a G7 highly industrialized country I also assume the average Italian citizen has a nice balance sheet (wealth). That would help to explain such a low external debt ratio (by Germany's/France's terms).Italy is solvent as long as it can keep its internal savings rate and while Italians keep their money in the Country. The problem is that an exit of deposits from Italians to Germany, France, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, US, UK is great for those Countries and guess who controls the ECB and the IMF...?There's a saying in Southern Europe that says: "With such a friend who needs enemies?"Have a look at the bund yields over the last 2-3 years and tell me what you think...The "Jerrys", the "Frogs", and the "Tommys" are fighting in the markets using Banks, Media and Politicians to fight with Southern EU countries for M1. Competition for M1 across Member States of a Union is unbelievable. I guess if they could hit Italy it would be a jackpot for Germany at least with a huge increase in cheap funding for the public and private sector hence driving growth at the expense of drying savings from Southern EU economies. The Jerry-Frog Alliance controls the ECB which controls the money supply. At the same time naive Politicians, Bankers and Citizens from South EU are allowing the IMF and the ECB to monitor their Balance Sheets, strengths and weaknesses, near term strategies, hence revealing their "hands" to competitors.

Gmike2000
Posts: 801
Joined: September 25th, 2003, 9:49 pm

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

I dont think this is about M1. This is about higher orders of M, credit that was extended multiple times on the back of M1. If it was up to the Southerners, they would just keep printing M1 until they run out of ink. They need to learn that wealth comes from working hard, not from drinking coffee all day in the sun and cashing in generous debt-financed government welfare. Jerrys and Frogs understand that, Luigis, Joses, and Kostas do not.

Anthis
Posts: 4313
Joined: October 22nd, 2001, 10:06 am

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: Gmike2000I dont think this is about M1. This is about higher orders of M, credit that was extended multiple times on the back of M1. If it was up to the Southerners, they would just keep printing M1 until they run out of ink. They need to learn that wealth comes from working hard, not from drinking coffee all day in the sun and cashing in generous debt-financed government welfare. Jerrys and Frogs understand that, Luigis, Joses, and Kostas do not.The last time I met Kostas, Luigi and Jose, their nuts were bleeding...they were picking them all day every day under the sun. They were tanned though...Their only problem was who will make the coffee. Dude, lighten up.

BullBear
Topic Author
Posts: 860
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 8:33 pm

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: Gmike2000I dont think this is about M1. This is about higher orders of M, credit that was extended multiple times on the back of M1. If it was up to the Southerners, they would just keep printing M1 until they run out of ink. They need to learn that wealth comes from working hard, not from drinking coffee all day in the sun and cashing in generous debt-financed government welfare. Jerrys and Frogs understand that, Luigis, Joses, and Kostas do not.While Luigis, Joses and Kostas tan due to our marvelous sunny weather and drink a cup coffee; Frogs eat loads of cheese, foie gras and drink Ricard's and Porto's and Jerrys fill their bellies with tons of beer, caviar and sausages.Greece has suffered from a routing of 200 Bn Euros due to this instability: "Will the EUR be our currency tomorrow?" and "If the EUR breaks up will Courts do the right thing and demand a break up of 1 EUR into 17 currencies weighted by each Nation participation on the ECB or will allow a confiscation of private wealth?". Now, what would happen if Americans started to think "Will the USD cease to be our currency tomorrow?" and "Will the US Treasury default on US citizens"?.Southern EU countries won't get out of the mess with this instability and who takes the gain? Germany, Switzerland and US. Where do you think the 200 bn in Greek deposits are?

BullBear
Topic Author
Posts: 860
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 8:33 pm

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: AnthisQuoteOriginally posted by: Gmike2000I dont think this is about M1. This is about higher orders of M, credit that was extended multiple times on the back of M1. If it was up to the Southerners, they would just keep printing M1 until they run out of ink. They need to learn that wealth comes from working hard, not from drinking coffee all day in the sun and cashing in generous debt-financed government welfare. Jerrys and Frogs understand that, Luigis, Joses, and Kostas do not.The last time I met Kostas, Luigi and Jose, their nuts were bleeding...they were picking them all day every day under the sun. They were tanned though...Their only problem was who will make the coffee. Dude, lighten up.Actually, I'm fed up with the EU. Who do these guys think they are to issue orders to people in Southern EU? Northern EU countries with the permission of Southern EU Oligarchs destroyed our Economy. It's an Economic Holocaust. If the decision was up to me I would get out of the EU today, nationalize all banks, default on all External Debt held by the Eurozone, and do one of two things: Huge Recapitalization of the Banking System and: 1. dollarization of the Economy or 2. Convert existing Domestic positions and contracts into USD/CAD or CHF. Another solution would be a dual-currency system - EUR/National Currency - to gradually reintroduce a national currency for new contracts.
Last edited by BullBear on November 10th, 2011, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: BullBearItaly's External DebtItaly external debt is lower than Germany or France ext debt. Being a G7 highly industrialized country I also assume the average Italian citizen has a nice balance sheet (wealth). That would help to explain such a low external debt ratio (by Germany's/France's terms).Italy's external debt amounts to about 73,000 Euros per Italian worker.Is the Italian economy growing fast enough to keep up the payments?
Last edited by Traden4Alpha on November 10th, 2011, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

farmer
Posts: 13479
Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaItaly's external debt amounts to about 73,000 Euros per Italian worker.Why did you choose that denominator?

farmer
Posts: 13479
Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: BullBearIf the decision was up to meYou should just make payments to influence key people to commit someone's money to pay off your creditors. Then once you are all triple A, you should borrow three times as much and do it all over again. At the end of it, you are just transferring money from some stupid taxpayer in another country to yours. And the stupidity of a voting taxpayer with money knows no bounds. People will elect a politician who absolutely destroys their country with socialism. As long as the voter is going to be stupid and throw it all away anyway, you should fleece what you can off him on his way down. The average voter prefers to be milked like a farm animal.

Posts: 23951
Joined: September 20th, 2002, 8:30 pm

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: farmerQuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4AlphaItaly's external debt amounts to about 73,000 Euros per Italian worker.Why did you choose that denominator?Ultimately, the Italian people must repay the debt. But the only ones that can repay the debt are those that have some kind of job. Children can't repay the debt, retirees can't repay the debt, unemployed people can't repay the debt, and stay-at-home moms can't repay the debt.Yes, it's a crude approximation, but it gives some idea of how much of each paycheck must go to repayment of debt.

farmer
Posts: 13479
Joined: December 16th, 2002, 7:09 am

### Italy madness - betting against society is 'legit'?

QuoteOriginally posted by: Traden4Alphathe only ones that can repay the debt are those that have some kind of job. Children can't repay the debt, retirees can't repay the debt, unemployed people can't repay the debt, and stay-at-home moms can't repay the debt.Employed people can't repay the debt either. Anyone knows that. I don't think people who bought the bonds ever expected the average Italian to come up with any money. Employed people are paid what they are paid, and charged what they are charged for products, because the money to pay these debts is taken out before they ever get their hands on it.Consider, their pay could drop to $1 a year. To say people making$1 a year can't pay these debts is silly, they are making \$1 because the money to pay the debts is taken out before they are paid. So your ratio is misleading.