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Paul
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Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 11:20 am

Looks like there's a high probability that we in the UK are going to have to learn to live in a Marxist state, led by that great intellect, Jeremy Corbyn. So, tell me, what's so terrible about Marxism?

Yes, I know, 100 million people killed thanks to Marxism in the 20th Century. And, ok, your classic socialist regimes are far worse that capitalist economies for human rights violations. And Marx thought that democratic elections were an inconvenience, rather getting in the way of the dictatorship of the proletariat. And I can see that some people won't be keen on having their hard-earned property taken away from them. But apart from all that (and the free distribution of goods, especially all my goods, I suspect), what's so wrong with Marxism?
 
jaw
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 11:38 am

Define Marxism. I haven't personally read the Labour manifesto, but from what I've heard it is full of eminently sensible policies such as scrapping tuition fees etc. Basically it's about ending the Conservative-led economic suicide through austerity. What the UK - and the rest of Europe - needs is less taxes and more government spending. Bring it on!
 
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ppauper
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 11:38 am

Yes, I know, 100 million people killed thanks to Marxism in the 20th Century.
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jaw
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 11:48 am

One point of the Labour manifesto I completely disagree with: their insistence on balancing the books. The UK government should focus on implementing sound policies, the effect of these policies on public sector debt and deficits is completely irrelevant.
 
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Traden4Alpha
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 12:41 pm

Marxism harnesses envy and capitalism harnesses greed. The first emphasizes cutting up the pie and the second gives people a reason to bake more pies.

Guess which one produces more long-term economic growth.
 
jaw
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 12:51 pm

 @Traden4Alpha. I don't find this answer very illuminating. Is anything that harnesses envy Marxism? Or is Marxism only one amongst the many things that harness envy? If so, If something harnesses envy, how can I tell whether it is Marxism or something else?
 
jaw
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 1:09 pm

My point is this. I am not expert on Marxism, nor have I read the Labour manifesto (which I presume is representative of the policies Labour would want to implement if in power). However, I am pretty sure that the Labour manifesto advocates a relatively moderate progressive/leftwing agenda, with some silly stuff thrown in (like the pledge to balance the books). I sincerely doubt there is very much Marxism in it. But I freely admit that I am speaking from a position of relative ignorance here. This thread is about how Jeremy Corbyn will turn the UK into a Marxist state. I find this a potentially very interesting debate, hence my question: what exactly - i.e. concrete policy proposals - do we talk about when we talk about Marxism in this context?
 
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Traden4Alpha
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 1:26 pm

I suppose anarchy also harnesses envy and various social justice warriors who encourage looting are also harnessing envy. The differences between Marxism and those two examples might be in respective explanations for why envy occurs, psychological tools for manipulating group action, and what should be done about it.

The other major difference between Marxism and Capitalism seems to be that the former seeks to meet minimum needs and the second seeks to permit maximum aspirations. Prague was a beautiful city until the Soviets took over. Then it became drab and utilitarian. With the fall of communism, Prague became beautiful again. But, of course, that beauty was never uniformly available to all.
 
jaw
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 1:39 pm

After reading this, I still don't know what the essential features of Marxism are, nor how they relate to Labour and/or Jeremy Corbyn. I am not necessarily saying you're wrong, there's just not enough substance there to either agree or disagree with. 
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 1:42 pm

Marxism started off as a predictive scientific theory but the Bolsheviks ruined it. After that it degenerated into pseudoscience. 
Last edited by Cuchulainn on June 26th, 2017, 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Paul
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 1:45 pm

The backdrop to this post is related to the manifesto. In particular I know some people treat it as gospel, others as a part of a confidence trick. I.e. would it be implemented or torn up? I believe it would be torn up...and that's simply from reading the personalities behind it and their track records. Hence potential for a pretty Marxist government. (I speak as someone whose education has all been free (parents means tested when I went to university), and think rail etc. should be nationalized, but who is mainly very right wing (as in " take some of my money in taxes, as little as necessary, then just please leave me alone).)
 
jaw
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 1:46 pm

For example, ensuring that everyone has access to top quality affordable healthcare and education seems to me to be entirely reasonable, both from a moral and economic standpoint. Is this Marxism? 
 
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Paul
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 1:49 pm

After reading this, I still don't know what the essential features of Marxism are, nor how they relate to Labour and/or Jeremy Corbyn. I am not necessarily saying you're wrong, there's just not enough substance there to either agree or disagree with. 
Take "property is theft." Ok, not strictly Marx but some other bloke around the same time. After the horrors of Grenfell Tower Corbyn's first response was to exploit the situation and suggest seizing people's property. Of all the ways we could help those unfortunate people his first reaction was to attack the rich. Very much out of the Marxism for Dummies playbook: get people all foaming at the mouth and let them loose.
 
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Paul
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 1:51 pm

For example, ensuring that everyone has access to top quality affordable healthcare and education seems to me to be entirely reasonable, both from a moral and economic standpoint. Is this Marxism? 
No. But depends whether you believe the manifesto, as I said. Seizing property was not in the manifesto. It might be next time.
 
jaw
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Re: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Marxism But Were Afraid To Ask Jeremy Corbyn

June 26th, 2017, 1:54 pm

@Paul (Re Grenfell and Corbyn) What exactly did Corbyn suggest? Do you have a link to a more detailed account? I don't know enough of what happen to give a meaningful reaction.
Last edited by jaw on June 26th, 2017, 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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