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tw
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 26th, 2019, 11:22 am

But that rests on the major assumption that the little boy in the White House won't just turn off anything that is not coal or oil, because they elect him.
Image
Nice gif!

It will be interesting to see how the legal actions around the Clean Air Act waiver concerning car emissions for California go.
 
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Alan
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 26th, 2019, 2:15 pm

Thanks.

Yes, car emission standards in California historically have had a tremendously positive local impact. When I went to college in the early 1970's, near the base of the San Gabriel mountains, on warm days the smog was so bad that you couldn't see the mountains and your eyes would burn. After a few decades of stringent emission rules, the smog situation in the LA basin has dramatically improved.  
 
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Collector
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 26th, 2019, 3:51 pm

are we really sure there is not a noise problem, I mean is it really okay with just looking at the average noise 

are they looking at average noise?

to build out wind mills are more complex, I would say it much depends on also where. Many places one are placing wind farms one have to build roads into untouched nature to build them, and also a big spot for each mil. Solar power has less effect I think, but the infrastructure to for example thousands off roof tops with empty space for solar are ready without having to ruin untouched nature. Why are these not built out first?

also it seems like the ones profiting from the wind mills often do not take the costs of them. Place them close to someone else than yourself, place them in a nature area u not are using to hike in yourself, don't worry about the noise caused on others .The average noise is fine, as long as we have a high average of happiness why bother look into the details.
Last edited by Collector on December 26th, 2019, 4:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Collector
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 26th, 2019, 4:13 pm

and what would batman say about them?


 “We see the impact of climate change on bats, and so we’re in favor of renewable energy,” Hein says. “It’s unfortunate that one of those—wind energy—has this negative impact.”

Bat Killings by Wind Energy Turbines Continue

Large numbers of bats are being killed at utility-scale wind energy facilities worldwide, raising concern about cumulative impacts of wind energy development on bat populations.

The development and expansion of wind energy is considered a key global threat to bat populations. Bat carcasses are being found underneath wind turbines across North and South America, Eurasia, Africa, and the Austro‐Pacific.

location, location, location is part of the aspects here that often is ignored

I produce my power with solar (most of my barn roof), not a single bird killed by it. If you are using wind or oil power then remember u are killing bats and birds, even if you should be vegan! 
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 26th, 2019, 5:18 pm

Round like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel

Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind!
Like a tunnel that you follow to a tunnel of its own
Down a hollow to a cavern where the sun has never shone
Like a door that keeps revolving in a half forgotten dream
 
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tw
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 26th, 2019, 7:19 pm

why do the moderns use three blades and old school use four?

Image
 
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Cuchulainn
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 26th, 2019, 8:31 pm

 
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bearish
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 27th, 2019, 2:41 am

Thanks.

Yes, car emission standards in California historically have had a tremendously positive local impact. When I went to college in the early 1970's, near the base of the San Gabriel mountains, on warm days the smog was so bad that you couldn't see the mountains and your eyes would burn. After a few decades of stringent emission rules, the smog situation in the LA basin has dramatically improved.  
If memory serves me right, Carnac the Magnificent contemplated the answer "UCLA". The question was something along the lines of "what happens when the smog clears in Pasadena?"
 
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trackstar
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 27th, 2019, 3:09 am

why do the moderns use three blades and old school use four?
The literature indicates lower costs and greater efficiency in three blade turbines. There are also comparative studies on two vs three blade turbines.

On the question of damage to wildlife/environment, I searched for best practices in wind turbines and came up with several documents worth looking at; of course ideas are one thing and implementation is  another, but still...

Best Practices for Sustainable Wind Energy Development in the Great Lakes Region - GLC.org (2011) 

Obviously not completely current, but nice case studies and relevant policy questions raised.

GP Wind - Good Practice Guide - EU Support from Intelligent Energy Europe (around 2012-2013)

General framework and policy guidance, and some interesting details.

and finally

IEA Recommended Practices - IEA Wind.org

"The IEA Wind TCP is a vehicle for member countries to exchange information on the planning and execution of national, large-scale wind system projects and to undertake co-operative research and development projects called Tasks or Annexes. As a final result of research carried out in the IEA Wind TCP Tasks, Recommended Practices, Best Practices, or Expert Group Reports may be issued. A Recommended Practices document includes actions and procedures recommended by the experts involved in the research project. Use of these documents is completely voluntary. However, these documents are often adopted in part or in total by other standards-making bodies."

You can view the Recommended Practices library by clicking here."

There are quite a few special reports that address noise and other environmental impacts.

I was peripherally involved with some of the research around the Cape Wind project in the early 2000s. Planning began around 2001 and the project leases were terminated in 2017. It's also a great case study - you can learn more from failure than from success sometimes.

Cape Wind - Wikipedia
(a fairly detailed summary - there is plenty of other coverage on this too).

"The Cape Wind Project was a proposed offshore wind farm on Horseshoe Shoal in Nantucket Sound off Cape CodMassachusetts, United States. It was approved, but then lost several key contracts and suffered from several licensing and legislative setbacks. The developer, Jim Gordon of Energy Management, Inc. eventually terminated the lease rights for the site in late 2017..."
  
The spectacle is not a collection of images, but a social relation among people, mediated by images. - Guy Debord
 
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Alan
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 27th, 2019, 3:43 am

Thanks.

Yes, car emission standards in California historically have had a tremendously positive local impact. When I went to college in the early 1970's, near the base of the San Gabriel mountains, on warm days the smog was so bad that you couldn't see the mountains and your eyes would burn. After a few decades of stringent emission rules, the smog situation in the LA basin has dramatically improved.  
If memory serves me right, Carnac the Magnificent contemplated the answer "UCLA". The question was something along the lines of "what happens when the smog clears in Pasadena?"
Ha!  Impressive -- I watched Carson for years, and of course remember Carnac, but not any particular jokes.

@trackstar.
I see there was objection about Cape Wind because of birds. This objection seemed rather more unusual:
"On January 4, 2010, U.S. Interior Secretary Ken Salazar called a meeting of principal parties to resolve remaining issues after the National Park Service ruled that Nantucket Sound is eligible to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places because of its cultural and spiritual significance to two Native American tribes. "After several years of review, it is now time to move the Cape Wind proposal to a final decision point. That is why I am gathering the principal parties together next week to consider the findings of the Keeper and to discuss how we might find a common-sense agreement on actions that could be taken to minimize and mitigate Cape Wind’s potential impacts on historic and cultural resources."

There's a big wind farm on the way to Palm Springs and, coincidentally, some Native American interests right next door :D 
 
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tw
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 27th, 2019, 10:59 am

One of the fascinating aspects about working in renewable energy is the industry's dawning realisation that wind energy has only finite resources
and tapping wind on huge scales starts to get diminishing returns

Real world engineering is alive and well and making a contribution in contrast to the rather more moribund financial engineering.

I also love all these ancient named winds getting referenced!
 
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 27th, 2019, 6:38 pm

 
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bearish
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Joined: February 3rd, 2011, 2:19 pm

Re: Tilting at windmills

December 27th, 2019, 6:58 pm

Thanks.

Yes, car emission standards in California historically have had a tremendously positive local impact. When I went to college in the early 1970's, near the base of the San Gabriel mountains, on warm days the smog was so bad that you couldn't see the mountains and your eyes would burn. After a few decades of stringent emission rules, the smog situation in the LA basin has dramatically improved.  
If memory serves me right, Carnac the Magnificent contemplated the answer "UCLA". The question was something along the lines of "what happens when the smog clears in Pasadena?"
Ha!  Impressive -- I watched Carson for years, and of course remember Carnac, but not any particular jokes.
My favorite was probably: "Sinbad" --- "Summarize the bible in two words!"
 
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tw
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 27th, 2019, 7:40 pm

 
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katastrofa
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Re: Tilting at windmills

December 28th, 2019, 12:14 am

and what would batman say about them?


 “We see the impact of climate change on bats, and so we’re in favor of renewable energy,” Hein says. “It’s unfortunate that one of those—wind energy—has this negative impact.”

Bat Killings by Wind Energy Turbines Continue

Large numbers of bats are being killed at utility-scale wind energy facilities worldwide, raising concern about cumulative impacts of wind energy development on bat populations.

The development and expansion of wind energy is considered a key global threat to bat populations. Bat carcasses are being found underneath wind turbines across North and South America, Eurasia, Africa, and the Austro‐Pacific.

location, location, location is part of the aspects here that often is ignored

I produce my power with solar (most of my barn roof), not a single bird killed by it. If you are using wind or oil power then remember u are killing bats and birds, even if you should be vegan! 
Isn't it an extreme measure of getting rid of your echo-locators? How about you put a planning application notice, as we do this in the UK:
Image
"Proposal: erecting a windmill. ... Any bat who wishes to make a representation to Council about this application should send it no later than [put yesterday's date]" The bats will read it, assume that it's too late, and move out to your neighbour. Two kills with one stone!
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